Golden Retriever Dog Forums banner

41 - 60 of 67 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,424 Posts
He needs exercise. He drags his leash because we sometimes need to run after him.

Clearly you have not met Murphy! :LOL:

View attachment 882733


He responds to Sit, Stand, Down, Walk, Fetch, Come, Look, Paw, and his name. He does not respond to Drop, Leave, No, Stop, Ouch, or Help!
Murphy is a precious young puppy. We don't come out of the box good to go. Murphy isn't even a teenager yet. Do you have children? I started maturing in my early 30s. lol

If you let Murphy run around jumping all over people, he is learning that lesson well.

As was pointed out, just because he has learned a directive -- like sit for a treat -- doesn't mean he knows the command in all situations. It takes a while and a lot of repetition and proofing to get reliable behavior. If Logan (my Golden) gets a command -- I'll stick with sit -- and he holds the position until released regardless of other dogs, people, deer, or what have you -- that is knowing the command. At this point, he offers an autosit when I stop to talk to people. When he was younger he could be distracted by things like leaves blowing and butterflies.

Anyway, I have not met Murphy, but he sure is a cutie and definitely not an idiot. He is budding potential awaiting to learn. :D Goldens are fun puppies and young dogs. You just have to stay on your toes. Make learning fun. teach him to engage. It takes time. Each dog is different. Enjoy!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,877 Posts
He responds to Sit, Stand, Down, Walk, Fetch, Come, Look, Paw, and his name. I would say most commands are instant, but he sees them as actions not poses, such that bouncing his bottom off the floor counts as a Sit in his mind and he is not relaxing into a pose. He does not respond to Drop, Leave, No, Stop, Ouch, or Help!
I've trained a lot of dogs in my life. My last dog and my current dog both won national agility championships. Because my dogs are my agility partners, I look for confident pups that want to work with their human. Every single thing you have said in this thread suggests to me that Murphy is this type of pup. He's interactive and interested in you, and he's clearly enthusiastic about his training. He seems to have a lot of potential.

But when I read through your posts, he's always described as the "problem". He's stubborn. He doesn't listen. He chooses which commands to obey and which to ignore. He gets aggressive. Etc. I can tell you that in all my years of training dogs, whenever I've encountered difficulties, I've never thought that the dog was the problem. My first reaction has always been: What am I doing wrong? When my current dog was younger, he wasn't showing drive in our agility training. I didn't blame the dog; instead I handed over his training to my daughter and watched, to try and identify where I was going wrong. I quickly realized I was trying to train him in the same way as I'd trained my previous dog, who was very different personality-wise. With her, it was a question of harnessing her natural speed to develop her skills. However, this dog needed me to build his confidence in order to develop speed. I completely changed my approach, and as his confidence grew it was incredible to see how quickly and well he responded. I could have dismissed him as lazy, or unmotivated, or stubborn, but I didn't. He's none of those things. He was never the problem; I was.

With regard to the quote above, from one of your posts, I'm going to say this again: What you have is a 13-week old PUPPY. You're expecting far too much far too soon, and you're making a lot of mistakes in your training that are causing the difficulties you're now experiencing. The dog isn't the problem here.

Your pup sees the commands as actions because you've taught him to see them that way. Your training method has produced this result. My advice: Slow down. Pick one command and train it properly. When rewarding compliance, it's you who decides what "compliance" means. If you reward a "bounce", then you're teaching him that it's what you want. If you don't want it, don't reward it. Reward sits that last two or three seconds. Then those that last five seconds. Then those that last ten seconds.

Dog training isn't an instant thing. You can't say that a 13-week old puppy has been fully "trained" to obey half a dozen commands, because he hasn't. All he's doing right now is producing behaviours that generate treats. He's doing this because of the way you've been using treats in your training.

Again regarding the quote above, pups don't choose which commands they're going to obey and which they're going to ignore. They're not humans - they don't work that way. Dogs obey the commands they've been trained to obey. If Murphy isn't obeying Drop, Leave, No or Stop, it's because you haven't trained him to obey them. Yelling "Stop" isn't training. You have to teach him what it means. And it needs to mean one thing, not a bunch of things. You can't use "Stop" to mean "stop biting me" and "stop chewing the furniture" and "stop chasing people in the park". It doesn't work that way. "Stop" needs to mean one thing only. In your current position, I'd suggest teaching him that it means "stop putting your teeth on human clothing".

When training my dogs, I don't use "no". I use "ah-ah" to signal a behaviour I don't want, and I immediately follow it up with the command for the behaviour I want instead. So: If the dog jumps up: "ah-ah, sit". The "ah-ah" signals that I don't like the jumping, and the "sit" tells him what I want him to do instead. If the dog grabs something I don't want him to have: "ah-ah, drop it". And so on. You start by teaching the replacement behaviours - there's no point telling a dog to "drop it" if you haven't trained him to comply. "Drop it" is a fairly easy command to teach - you can free-shape it, or you can teach it as part of a game.

You say in one of your posts that your trainer said a crate shouldn't be used as punishment. That's simply not true. Dogs are well able to distinguish between crate time as a punishment and crate time for other reasons. Not only that, but the crate is a management tool. For example, if you're on a Zoom call for work, put the pup in the crate so he doesn't get into trouble. Not only will this allow you to focus on your work, but it will also teach your dog that you're in charge, not him. Right now, he's doing whatever he wants, whenever he wants to. By giving him opportunities to do that, you're effectively teaching him that he's in charge, not you.

Best of luck, hope you find a solution that works for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,196 Posts
Yelling "Stop" isn't training. You have to teach him what it means. And it needs to mean one thing, not a bunch of things. You can't use "Stop" to mean "stop biting me" and "stop chewing the furniture" and "stop chasing people in the park". It doesn't work that way. "Stop" needs to mean one thing only. In your current position, I'd suggest teaching him that it means "stop putting your teeth on human clothing".
I agree with 100% of what you've posted. I pulled this quote out b/c I actually taught Lana Stop. For us STOP meant, stop what you're doing, focus on me and come to me. It took about three months to get consistent results but I can use it in a variety of situations (stop barking, stop scratching your face off, stop pushing a bone into my foot, stop pacing, etc) I usually couple it with a redirection command, such as "Stop" Good girl <insert reinforcer to reward successful stop/focus/coming to me> "Settle". Or "Stop" "Let me scratch your face" so then she stops beating her face up and comes to me and I gently rub it and get all the nooks and crannies that she was trying to reach. Though my favorite is when they've jammed a bone against something (usually furniture) and it makes a racket. I used to use STOP but dropped it over time and now all three dogs respond to "find another spot" which means pick up your toy and go to a different spot. Could be 3 feet, could be a different room, could be a different a different couch, etc.

There are so many things you're dogs learn just living with humans. I lovingly refer to Molly as a demon cause she can be a handful but it's all in jest and I know that when we have problems it's cause of me. If she's picking up inappropriate items, who left it where she could get it? She likes to bring me my shoes. I just thank her and put it up. She brings me trash that's fallen out of the can (thanks to a kitten and no lids). Thank you! Good Job! Smart Puppy!

When she's over-aroused and back to biting, I praise her for having a toy in her mouth and when she's invested enough I will toss it and when she brings it back we throw a party. If she is past the point of sense, it's 100% ok to put her in the crate to reset. It's not a punishment. It's a break.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #45 ·
When she's over-aroused and back to biting, I praise her for having a toy in her mouth and when she's invested enough I will toss it and when she brings it back we throw a party. If she is past the point of sense, it's 100% ok to put her in the crate to reset. It's not a punishment. It's a break.
When Murphy is over-aroused I don the thick leather gloves keep a clenched fist with food inside - he goes absolutely wild but burns himself out and then tries a peaceful approach. I know this is the exact opposite of what you are all recommending, but with just a few sessions it seems to have trained Murphy to not go wild in the first place as doing so only wastes his time and energy. It is also very similar to the approach in some kiko videos, with only difference being that kiko videos focus on smaller pups before they develop bad habits!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
18,566 Posts
I play with him but it's not actually fun because he is strong enough to cause damage to people and laptops. Many dog walkers are surprised to learn his age and they tell me his paws are huge. He stresses me in public because he charges at random people, to play, but he does not know the boundaries. He actually steals balls during sports games, he picks play fights with big Doberman dogs, he chased one pair of scared joggers off a playing field, he chased one scared adult Cocker Spaniel off the field, he made an old lady scream by nosing her rear, and he made my heart jump when I thought he was about to push a small child into a cold river; thankfully recall worked just in time! He has done all this while still a baby!



I did not read the responses here until just now. I sacrificed a fair amount of time today to sit with my puppy while he did whatever he wanted, in exchange for simply not being bitten. Each time he bit me I tried to explain to him (using a novel sign language) that biting results in me leaving, and I moved towards my exit, which caused him to cry. I then stopped and returned to the puppy. At the end of the day he seemed content to not bite in exchange for me not leaving. Of course I needed to leave eventually, so then he cried, and then in his tantrum he disconnected the stair barrier from the stairs! :eek:

Eventually we reinstalled the barrier and he cried himself to sleep. Each time I think I've made a breakthrough he reverts to bad behaviour, so I'll probably be mauled come breakfast.


He knows the commands. He chooses when to follow commands and when to ignore commands.

He does not know the commands, he is a baby, still learning. Honestly, all the things you are complaining about are absolutely normal for a 13 week old puppy. He's not throwing a tantrum, he's just being a puppy. Chasing things that run is PLAY, he is a puppy he's playing, running up to new people is being friendly, not mean, not being a menace. Either you don't understand or you don't accept what a puppy is and how they act.

Please find a training center that has a puppy class and have a long conversation with the trainer without the puppy.

Please read this article:


I feel sorry for this puppy. Have you considered returning him to the breeder? You are not enjoying him, and you don't seem to be making any progress to that improving. Return him now while he is young enough to be rehomed to another family easily.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #47 · (Edited)
Honestly, all the things you are complaining about are absolutely normal for a 13 week old puppy.
It might be physically insignificant for a small puppy to throw a rag doll around, but Murphy is not actually small and he was not limiting his play to toys.

It is absolutely not normal for a puppy to be allowed to injure people. He was drawing our blood and that is not tolerable. Puppies learn fastest at 8 to 16 weeks old, and their lessons at that age are permanent. According to KC approved trainers aggression needs to be dealt with early to stop it being a life problem.

Please find a training center that has a puppy class and have a long conversation with the trainer without the puppy.
I did and their advice set him on the wrong path. He learned Tug at puppy school, which incidentally was not a KC approved school. Learning tug before learning basic commands like Drop/Leave was the root cause of our problems, it set back training many weeks, and I now know is absolutely inappropriate for a puppy under 16 weeks to be taught Tug.

I have trained that out of him now, but not using your methods of letting a puppy do whatever it wants just because its a puppy. We already missed the 8 to 11 week fear imprint period; he had a sheltered comfortable time and emerged fearless. Thankfully we put a stop to him tugging people before he turned 16 weeks.

I do not know how to stop him tugging other dogs and that remains a danger because not all dogs are playful. Tugging the wrong animal, such as police dog or guide dog, might be a problem. I have just realised he has never met a guide dog :(

He does not know the commands, he is a baby, still learning.
He is a big boy and needs to be allowed off leash for excercise.

During walks in woodland he meets all types of people and dogs. It is a near-miss when he puts his paws on another dog walker and receives complimentary cuddles. On one such walk Murphy did what you would describe as 'normal' and almost pushed a 2 year old boy into a river! Murph was on his hind legs with his paws in their air ready to land on the boy when the boy's grandma screamed. I shouted "Murphy, Come" and he stopped instantly, did a u-turn and came to me, allowing the grandma to snatch her boy to safety. The poor woman was visibly scared. Murphy knows the commands - its just not consistent, which means it is dumb luck that he has not caused an incident, but we would be a worse place if I had not taught him that command.

He steals food at home from the kitchen table, which is a warning that he needs training in that issue. It is going to be a problem if he snatches someone else's lunch from their public picnic table. We cannot allow big puppies to run around doing whatever they want just because they are young; they need to obey commands.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
18,566 Posts
I never said let him do what ever he wants. You seem to think he is deliberately, with forethought and malice, doing things to injure people. He's not. He's a puppy doing what puppies do naturally, and it is on you to teach him the right way to interact with people and other dogs. If he can't be trusted to NOT jump on people or other dogs right now, then it's your responsibility to keep him on a leash and control him. If he is as bad as you say about how he approaches others then don't let him loose to behave that way. He does not need off leash until he can be trusted to behave. If he needs more exercise then you have to find another way to give it to him. You are letting him practice behavior you don't want.

If he jumps on people or other dogs it is absolutely your fault for letting him off leash when you know he will do that. That is not Murphy being bad, that is his owner not being responsible when they know their dog isn't ready to be trusted, and is still learning not to do those things.

Your attitude in all the myriad of posts has been this is a bad dog, when the reality is that this a puppy who needs to learn. This is an ongoing process.

I'd really like to know what you expected from a puppy. Did you think he would be well behaved, always calm, never get excited, and follow commands every single time, right away, like an adult dog that has had years of training?

It is absolutely to be expected that he is not consistent, he is still learning. He is not an adult dog that has learned impulse control, and whose brain has matured, he is a puppy and can't always have impulse control, because his brain is not developed to that point yet. You don't get to say a dog knows a command until they have executed that command 1000 times without fail. That's consistent, and that takes practice, and maturity.

You talk about him like he is the size of a Mastiff, when I know for sure a 13 week old Golden Retriever is not the size of a Mastiff. Could you post a current picture of him?

What I wish is that you would reward him for doing the right things, celebrate when he does do right, be happy about what he has learned, and acknowledge he is still learning.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #49 ·
You talk about him like he is the size of a Mastiff, when I know for sure a 13 week old Golden Retriever is not the size of a Mastiff. Could you post a current picture of him?
Photo in the showcase but no size comes across in a photo. I expect he is approaching 14kg but I have not measured him today.

I'll come back later today. I'm not expecting him to know stuff out of the box :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Just measured Murphy and coincidentally he was exactly 14.0kg this morning. This figure will be slightly higher after lunch.

Granted, that is a small weight for any adult, but as @mylissyk pointed out he does not have adult training. My view is that 14kg is a handful of dog if untrained.

I can report though that today he completed his command drill perfectly (for food), and he allowed himself to be brushed (without biting), which is all good progress. The bad news is that, although he is not tugging, he did have an erection while mouthing my clothes! Blogs suggest erections can be explained by lack of exercise, so I'll be letting him off his leash again today..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,877 Posts
It is absolutely not normal for a puppy to be allowed to injure people. He was drawing our blood and that is not tolerable. Puppies learn fastest at 8 to 16 weeks old, and their lessons at that age are permanent. According to KC approved trainers aggression needs to be dealt with early to stop it being a life problem.
Again, what you are dealing with is not aggression. You do NOT have an aggressive puppy. You have a mouthy puppy that is a bit too much for your current training capabilities, that is all. As previously explained, golden retrievers explore the world using their mouths - they are retrievers, after all. It's a characteristic of the breed. It's a behaviour that's easy to manage if you know what you're doing. It involves teaching bite inhibition - in other words, teaching the pup not to bite down when he puts his teeth on certain things (humans included). I always teach this as soon as the pup comes home at 8 weeks of age.

He learned Tug at puppy school, which incidentally was not a KC approved school. Learning tug before learning basic commands like Drop/Leave was the root cause of our problems, it set back training many weeks, and I now know is absolutely inappropriate for a puppy under 16 weeks to be taught Tug.
The underlined phrase above is simply not true: it is entirely appropriate for young puppies to learn how to tug. Talk to anyone who competes in dog sports (obedience, agility, frisbee, whatever) and they will all have started playing tug with their pups as soon as they get them. Tug is a great game, but teaching it properly means approaching it backwards: using the tug toy to teach the "drop it" command first, and then incorporating the command into the game from the beginning. A game of tug burns a lot of physical and mental energy in a short time and is an ideal activity for drivey dogs. It also encourages the dog to focus on the owner, and if you use it properly, it's a calming activity for the dog. If your dog is becoming "riled" when you tug, it's because you're not doing it properly. The link below is to a Karen Pryor article on how to teach tug and use it to help your dog to calm down.

During walks in woodland he meets all types of people and dogs. It is a near-miss when he puts his paws on another dog walker and receives complimentary cuddles. On one such walk Murphy did what you would describe as 'normal' and almost pushed a 2 year old boy into a river! Murph was on his hind legs with his paws in their air ready to land on the boy when the boy's grandma screamed. I shouted "Murphy, Come" and he stopped instantly, did a u-turn and came to me, allowing the grandma to snatch her boy to safety. The poor woman was visibly scared. Murphy knows the commands - its just not consistent, which means it is dumb luck that he has not caused an incident, but we would be a worse place if I had not taught him that command.

He steals food at home from the kitchen table, which is a warning that he needs training in that issue. It is going to be a problem if he snatches someone else's lunch from their public picnic table. We cannot allow big puppies to run around doing whatever they want just because they are young; they need to obey commands.
I have the most issues with this part of your post. I entirely agree with your last sentence (underlined). Puppies, regardless of size, should not be allowed to run free and do whatever they want. But if you look at your previous paragraph, that is exactly what you're allowing your puppy to do. You're letting him off the leash, essentially to run wild. The fact that he almost injured a child is not his fault; it's yours. You're the one who let him off the leash and allowed him to approach the child in the first place. Lunging at people, jumping up, grabbing their clothes, nipping at other dogs: these are all self-rewarding behaviours. In giving your puppy the chance to engage in these activities - by letting him off the leash in public spaces where other people and dogs are present - you're giving him a chance to learn that it's fun to do these things. A 14-week-old puppy should never, ever be off leash in a public space like this. Not ever. I don't care how well-trained you expect him to be, the fact remains that he's a puppy and he's way too immature to have the level of training and self-control he would need for this type of freedom. It's irresponsible and dangerous. If your puppy had pushed the child into the river, and the child had drowned, it's not the puppy that people would have held accountable, it's the human being who should have had the puppy under control (on a leash) and didn't.

Dogs, like humans, gain maturity and self-control with age and experience. Puppies need to be managed for their own good, and yours. You will eventually have a dog that can run off-leash, in a year or two, but not if you try to skip life stages with him, and certainly not if you allow him to learn how much fun it can be to knock people down and tear their clothes.

I'm sorry if some of this sounds harsh; I don't mean it to. But it's frustrating to me, as someone who's been training dogs all her life, to hear someone blame a 14-week-old puppy for the human owner's training and management failures, and be upset because the puppy doesn't behave like a mature 5-year-old dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #52 · (Edited)
@ceegee - I can only repeat that he was introduced to Tug by a professional trainer, and that trainer taught none of the things you talk of. The syllabus used Tug as a "warm up" before the training session before the puppy knows any commands.

The syllabus did not have a Drop command per-se. What happened with Murphy is that our Tug session started perfectly, according to our trainer, but it then did not stop. The trainer said to just make the arm limp, as this would make him lose interest in the toy - he did lose interest in the toy and instead went for the hand that had stopped moving the toy. The trainer said to just stand up, look away and cross the arms - he tried jumping, but settled on switching from targeting hands to targeting feet. The trainer said reward him for letting go, but he simply did not let go!

The lessons were one hour long. Murphy would keep tugging for hours! Each lesson warms up with Tug, so whatever was in the rest of the lesson was missed because once he started Murphy simply would not stop tugging.

Murphy also learned to lose interest in the toy itself. The trainer said to wriggle it in front of him, move it back and forth, and he just ignored all the movements; he just lay still like a cat ready to pounce. The only thing that motivated him to move was a chance to catch the hand that had power over the toy. I tried to prove this to the trainer but he remained completely still, ignoring the toy, for longer than the trainer could wait. In either case the trainer's hypothesis that he would grab the toy was wrong.

I also tried adapting advice from the kiko videos, which was to try a treat in one hand and a toy in the other, with the hypothesis that he would choose the treat over the toy. That failed because he ignored both the treat and the toy; he also completely ignored the hand with the treat - I could put it on his nose and he would not flinch. Murphy remained absolutely fixated on the hand that had power over the toy!

I had deep gashes on my knuckles from the occasions when Murphy had succeeded in grabbing his target. The skin on the back of my hand turned stiff with scars, and it stung every day, before I invested in leathers.

Adapting a different kiko video I used leather gloves to teach him that he cannot win by tugging. He has finally stopped. He is lovely without Tug! He can be cuddled, rubbed, run with, plays fetch, and he has a good vocabulary. I also consulted his breeder. Her advice was never teach Tug. Why would I bring back the one thing that caused so much pain to everyone involved?

Fetch is the reason he walks in parks off leash. How do I exercise a 14kg puppy on a leash? (serious question)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
376 Posts
He steals food at home from the kitchen table, which is a warning that he needs training in that issue. It is going to be a problem if he snatches someone else's lunch from their public picnic table. We cannot allow big puppies to run around doing whatever they want just because they are young; they need to obey commands.
We learned to be very fastidious with our kitchen counters, dining table, coffee table, desks, etc. -- there must be no temptations on surfaces or in the rooms. Otherwise, each time the puppy steals food or a napkin, that is in itself a reward. When I'm prepping dinner or eating dinner when the surfaces are occupied with tempting items, then the puppy is in his exercise pen, crate, or leashed (I attached a leash to the freezer door) where he cannot reach interesting items.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
376 Posts
Fetch is the reason he walks in parks off leash. How do I exercise a 14kg puppy on a leash? (serious question)
Get a long line that's 15-30 yards. You can hold on to the end or allow him to drag it around while you're playing. Then pick up the leash or step on it if you sense trouble.

The tugging and biting behaviors sound like he's too aroused and over threshold. Perhaps the playtime is too long and he becomes like an overtired toddler who then has a temper because they're too tired but yet doesn't want to nap? Try making the playtimes shorter but more frequent.

Try to read something about understanding dog behavior and the human-dog relationship. I really like The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller, or Patricia McConnell's books are great too. Ian Dunbar has excellent free reading about puppies on his site (Resources) about how to set up your house and schedule for puppy management.

It is tempting to see our dog's behavior as willful and disobedient, but the truth is that puppies are learning everything about the world around them, and it's up to us to provide structure and meaning for them. Dog training isn't about making them do commands. We have to communicate in the way that they can understand, motivate them, and develop trust and friendship. When your puppy is frustrated or is excited, he's showing you exactly how he feels. Dogs don't know how to lie. It's up to us to understand what they are telling us, and to help them.

Dogs don't generalize well. Just because he knows the command Sit or Come at home, doesn't mean he knows it while he's outside, in the company of other dogs, among other people, etc. You will have to train in all different environments and adapt the lesson each time. For example, practice Sit in the garden, on the sidewalk in front of the house, in the park, and while guests are over. He'll be more distracted in new locations and be able to do it for less times, but that is okay, it's the repetition that counts. Make the requirements for doing a Sit easier when it's a harder environment to do it and increase the treat reward.

Puppies have a very short attention span, just like little kids. They need to be managed likewise. Set him up for success -- keep the situation easy for him to do the right thing.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
376 Posts
I found my puppy thread for Tomo (Our first puppy: Tomo) and it looks like Murphy and Tomo is about the same size at this age. Puppy training was quite hard and I broke down crying many times. He's 2 years old now and we still have bad times sometimes, but keep at it and Murphy will be great dog! Oh, the "stages of development" is general and not exactly which weeks or which months for a particular puppy -- physically goldens grow very fast, but they seem to maintain their sense of puppy fun and behaviors/development for a very long time. We're still always asked if he's a puppy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #56 · (Edited)
We learned to be very fastidious with our kitchen counters, dining table, coffee table, desks, etc. -- there must be no temptations on surfaces or in the rooms. Otherwise, each time the puppy steals food or a napkin, that is in itself a reward. When I'm prepping dinner or eating dinner when the surfaces are occupied with tempting items, then the puppy is in his exercise pen, crate, or leashed (I attached a leash to the freezer door) where he cannot reach interesting items.
Thanks for all your replies. I do not see how avoiding an issue will train him; surely he needs to be exposed to the temptation so that he can learn to resist that temptation?
The tugging and biting behaviors sound like he's too aroused and over threshold.
That is conventional wisdom, and for many weeks that exact belief determined how I treated him. The observation is that Murphy would go over threshold all the time so the philosophy meant we could not really do anything with him because we were always waiting for him to calm down.

In desperation I tried the complete opposite of conventional wisdom. I wore leathers and trained him while he was totally aroused and zooming, which is dangerous to do without leathers. The experiment worked because he simply gave up and obeyed. It was a breakthrough because he is now much gentler. If I go to him now he will look at me. If I give him a simple command and he will do it, and then look at me. That only happened because we worked through the state of being over aroused instead of trying to avoid it.

Not sure if its related but after some days of staying calm we noticed he gets an erection?

Puppies have a very short attention span, just like little kids.
They can definitely give attention to one thing for an extended time, like chewing a leg, if they want to ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,300 Posts
Thanks for all your replies. I do not see how avoiding an issue will train him; surely he needs to be exposed to the temptation so that he can learn to resist that temptation?
No. The way Jomiel did it is correct. If your pup does not learn how to chew, or steal food, or jump on counters and get rewarded by finding yummy things, he won't do these things as an adult. You need to get them past the puppy phase without giving them the opportunity to chew and be destructive. Supervise 100%, pick up all shoes, phones, remotes, etc. Don't leave food where he can steal it (or napkins or Kleenex, etc).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brave

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,196 Posts
At this point I think it's a fundamental difference of philosophy or viewpoint between the myriads of commenters and OP. OP prefers to set their dog up for failure so they can punish while simultaneously viewing their dog as bad (stubborn, willful, disobedient, hardheaded, aggressive, etc) or something to be 'broken'. While the majority of those commenting (even those who are not + only trainers) are seeing the situation as navigating the learning hurdles with a puppy who is experiencing life as puppies do; setting them up for success to incentivize repeats of desired behaviors; and altering training styles and techniques to what works for the dog not necessarily pushing the dog into whatever mold works for the owner.

I think I'm drawing the line for my participation at least. OP is Schrodinger's owner. Both knows everything and can train everything and somehow also overwhelmed and out of their depths. His puppy both knows commands precisely and nothing at all; in control at all times and out of control; doesn't jump up and also pushes kids in lakes, etc. All advice seems to fall on deaf ears. I've beaten my head against this wall enough.

Good luck to your puppy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
Discussion Starter · #59 · (Edited)
You need to get them past the puppy phase without giving them the opportunity to chew and be destructive.
How long will the 'puppy phase' be?

GRs are known to remain puppy-like longer than many other breeds. I have met someone who has a 2.5 year old Labrador that still behaves like a young puppy. Are you advocating several years of 100% supervision?

I noticed none of the responses provided explanation of how to stop a small puppy from tearing at people, suggesting to avoid contact with people seems unlikely to work, and there is no indication of how this would prevent a full sized GR from tearing at people.

Furthermore, the advice appears contradictory because techniques in kiko videos are advocated when dogs are well behaved, and separation is advocated when a puppy misbehaves. What I did was provide consistency instead of changing the rules for the situation.

Good luck to your puppy.
He does not need luck, he needs guidance so that he is controlled. Luck does not train a dog.

He is behaving much better after I adapted the lessons demonstrated in kiko videos, and the only thing I changed was (1) sticking to the same syllabus despite the fact that he was tugging on human skin and drawing blood, and (2) wearing leathers to avoid personal injury. I also dispensed with the professionally taught Tug lessons that had proved counter-productive.

I note nobody commented on personal injuries - many of you are being selective about which sentences are included in your version of the narrative.

OP is Schrodinger's owner.
I do not understand the reference but you seem to be expressing offence that I have made some progress after turning my back on the puppy school and after trying my own way of teaching him that he needs to be calm if he wants to be fed, and gentle if he wants to be around people. Is this what you intended?

As an aside, my wife is no longer screaming and crying. She is now able to grab him all over. I also don't like being grabbed and I sympathise with Murphy. She can command him to give her his paws for grooming, which is an improvement. Btw, he previously scratched the face of a professional groomer so these small steps are big improvements.

If your pup does not learn how to chew, or steal food, or jump on counters and get rewarded by finding yummy things, he won't do these things as an adult.
Most adult dogs have never seen a whole carcass hang from a hook, and most adult dogs have never been into an abattoir. Are you suggesting an adult dog, that never learned about such things as a puppy, would ignore a carcass on a hook in an abattoir?

COVID-era food deliveries put food at floor level. We have an open plan and our puppy took a pomegranate on the first delivery (to him it was a toy) and he now waits for the bananas on each delivery (he has learned to open them so that is not a toy).

My wife was disappointed last night that he jumped and knocked a bowl of noodles from her hands; training him to leave food alone is something I need to crack because people everywhere have food and he needs to be able to ignore a small child eating a hot dog. I suppose some would say I need him to avoid him being in those situations, but food is part of life and people are possessive of their food, so I will instead pursue the training that teaches dogs to leave food alone no matter how over-stimulated he becomes during those lessons.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,003 Posts
I actually taught Lana Stop. For us STOP meant, stop what you're doing, focus on me and come to me.
I use "Stop". Dog, especially puppies, hear NO frequently. "Stop" is a lesser reprimand, it just means quit doing that before you get in trouble. A for instance would be a pup that is about to tear up the flower bed or chew on the couch.
Puppies learn fastest at 8 to 16 weeks old, and their lessons at that age are permanent.
Not
GRs are known to remain puppy-like longer than many other breeds.
That is the owners. If you see a dog wearing a scarf, sweater or boots it is probably immature and poorly trained.
 
41 - 60 of 67 Posts
Top