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Just that of the breeds, goldens were more likely to bite than labs. Some carried scars to prove it.
I have no doubt that some of this was “old-school“ training. Much more pressure than is typical today. Still the same situation for all breeds.
My personal hands-on experience with goldens totals one dog. He is not aggressive but he would defend himself if backed into a corner.
I’ve been thinking this all day but didn’t want to say it. My old field trainer (trained my oldest Golden and my sons 2 labs) always says a Golden will bite before any other dog he works with.

I always chalk it up to intelligence. I’d bite him if he did some of his old school techniques on me.

Funny my new trainer, with some newer techniques, has never said that about Goldens. He is still constantly trying to get me to buy a lab though.

My only other thought of the day is that I train with a bunch of field bred labs and they seem smaller to me then the standard. Maybe it’s just the lines I’m exposed to. They are little power houses compared to the labs my Grandfather had.
 
Nobody said any of the breeds had aggression issues.
Just that of the breeds, goldens were more likely to bite than labs. Some carried scars to prove it.
I have no doubt that some of this was “old-school“ training. Much more pressure than is typical today. Still the same situation for all breeds.
My personal hands-on experience with goldens totals one dog. He is not aggressive but he would defend himself if backed into a corner. I have had Labs that wouldn’t have bitten if you filleted them with a knife.
When you say bite, I read that as a dog snapping at or going after a person or another dog. That is aggression. It may be fear aggression because of rough handling or a dog with a bad wire or two. The point is that is a dog that should be removed from the breeding pool. And I don't care what breed it is or what the dog has done. All of that goes in the garbage can if the dog is aggressive or has some other very serious fault. The point is not every dog should be bred.
 
My old field trainer (trained my oldest Golden and my sons 2 labs) always says a Golden will bite before any other dog he works with.

I always chalk it up to intelligence. I’d bite him if he did some of his old school techniques on me.
I have had the same thought and believe there is some truth to it. More than intelligence, I think it is a personality trait and possibly something that comes from generations back in the breed.
Despite what many Golden owners want to believe, good field bred Labs are extremely intelligent.

My only other thought of the day is that I train with a bunch of field bred labs and they seem smaller to me then the standard. Maybe it’s just the lines I’m exposed to. They are little power houses compared to the labs my Grandfather had.
Field Labs vary a lot in size. Sometimes even with pups from the same litter. It is a case of "form follows function" rather than the reverse. Given a choice I would actually prefer a retriever smaller than average, but that is low on my list of desirable traits.
 
When you say bite, I read that as a dog snapping at or going after a person or another dog. That is aggression. It may be fear aggression because of rough handling or a dog with a bad wire or two. The point is that is a dog that should be removed from the breeding pool. And I don't care what breed it is or what the dog has done. All of that goes in the garbage can if the dog is aggressive or has some other very serious fault. The point is not every dog should be bred.
I agree completely that not every dog should be bred. Limited registration is the reason why many of those "Shouldn't B's" are producing puppies. The demand for Goldens exceeds the supply so inferior dogs with full registration papers get bred.

When I say bite, I am talking about a dogs reaction in a high stress training situation. You can argue against such training methods and in almost every instance I would agree with you.
Eliminating the best dogs from the gene pool due to isolated instances and reactions to high stress situations would be the ruination of any breed.
 
Just sharing since I was reminiscing this morning and winking tears away while looking at pictures.

My Jacks was the dog on left.

To this day he was the only dog I've ever owned who did not have full registration. At the time I had no idea what limited registration was and LITERALLY asked a breeder if it meant that the dogs had a serious fault. I had no idea of showing in conformation and wasn't even dead set about doing too much obedience either. I had been out of the sport of obedience for 5-6+ years and kinda was sour about different trainers and programs and politics.

This dog was the best dog I've ever owned.

We are talking about temperament here and he was the type of dog who would sit with his head poking up out his crates and happily visit with any people AND dogs who stopped by. There was a fun match I went to with him where I had my back turned to the crate and was gabbing with a friend on the other side of me. Turned around and broke into a smile to see Jacks happily letting a huge dobie whisper secrets in his ears. This dog like his predecessor lived his whole life without ever showing his teeth, without growling, and without so much as giving people or dogs a "hard" look. This dog had been in high stress situations around other dogs and his thunder issues, and never growled, showed his teeth or anything bad.

It was because Jacks was a dream to train with and made me so proud of him in obedience - that I got hooked on obedience again. Despite all the politics which I hate. He was the type of dog who would have OTCH trainers stop in their tracks to watch him heeling. Heeling with him felt wonderful. It was literally no work on my part. It was all him.

I do think that once you show in conformation or competing in field trials - both sports which REQUIRE full registration.... it's really HARD to imagine going back to limited registration.

However, gotta point out that skipping out on a breeder because they only sell limited registration pups.... you could be missing out on a really great dog. You don't need full registration to excel with a dog in multiple sports.


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I do think that once you show in conformation or competing in field trials - both sports which REQUIRE full registration.... it's really HARD to imagine going back to limited registration.
Dogs with limited reg can compete in field trials.
I still strongly discourage anyone from buying a dog without full reg.
 
I'm a dork - I thought in order to be a FC, a dog had to have full registration. :)
A dog could be FC/AFC, win both the National Am and National Open and the breeder could still withhold full registration.
 
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Kelly - most people in obedience and agility are pretty quick to snip-snip - that I've noticed.

I just want to say I 1,000% agree with this. As someone who mainly focuses on agility these days, I can tell you the majority of agility homes have no desire to breed or keep a dog intact. Lots of nice male agility dogs that are out there were sold on full registration and are still neutered.
 
I have been told by several experienced trainers that, of the retriever breeds, it is the Golden that is most likely to bite.

I am glad the Goldens do well in the obedience ring. However that is not what a working retriever is meant to do. The obedience ring does not test the qualities a retriever must have.
There are exercises in the obedience ring that are inspired by field training. You send your dog out, I send mine out. Your dog does a whistle sit, mine does a turn and sit. You direct yours where to go after that sit, so do I. Your dog retrieves a bird, mine retrieves a dumbbell. Your dog is directed to pick up the bird you told him to when there is more than one out there, my dog is directed to pick up the glove I told him to when there is. more than one out there.

Obedience actually does test the qualities a retriever needs to have, just on a much smaller scale.
 
I understand limited registration from the breeders side. I always negotiate my purchase contract to say if a certain level title is achieved, along with proper health clearances, my limited registration is changed to full registration. I had assumed most people did this. The saddest part of limited registration would be that dog that turns out to be amazing and can’t be bred by a responsible owner due to registration.

Do irresponsible puppy mill or byb’s care about registration? Wouldn’t they just breed doodles for money these days?
When I have had puppies in the past I sold them on a limited registration, with the stipulation that I would change to full registration if the pup passed all health certification at the proper age. One of these pups eventually achieved several agility titles and also produced several agility titled dogs and bitches. Most people just want a great pet and don't bother to seek full registration.
 
Limited Registration
I'm so sorry. Your breeder should be so proud of your dog's accomplishments and your amazing partnership. I believe I recognize the name in a really awful way and I am sorry for that association too because while I'm not sure that was ever resolved, if it was, it also almost certainly included AKC banishment and if so, even if she wanted to change it she couldn't...
Such a sad story for such an amazing dog.
 
Obedience actually does test the qualities a retriever needs to have, just on a much smaller scale.
I'm sure it tests a few of them. To succeed in field trials, a dog has to be able to mark and remember the falls of several birds. Not an easy thing to do because the judges always put the birds where the dogs don't want to go.
Good obedience is needed in a trial dog but that only gets them to the line.
If you make it through the first series, there is a good chance that the judges will leave the flier crates and a gunner in the field. The route to the land blind may require your dog to pass within a few yards of those crates (with a few birds in them) and go another 200 to the blind.
 
I'm sure it tests a few of them. To succeed in field trials, a dog has to be able to mark and remember the falls of several birds. Not an easy thing to do because the judges always put the birds where the dogs don't want to go.
Good obedience is needed in a trial dog but that only gets them to the line.
If you make it through the first series, there is a good chance that the judges will leave the flier crates and a gunner in the field. The route to the land blind may require your dog to pass within a few yards of those crates (with a few birds in them) and go another 200 to the blind.
And obedience keeps him/her under control.:) Many dogs can heel to the line, but only the most obedient of them can complete the job!
I know it's tougher than obedience at the top levels. No doubt about it! But remember that at the top levels....obedience is tough too. I do my best to never discount any other sport. They all have a degree of difficulty to train towards.

I firmly believe that obedience is at the foundation of EVERYTHING we do with our dogs!

Back to the subject at hand. Limited registration....in theory, it was a good idea. In practice, there are way too many people out there who don't care about rules for it to work as intended.
 
I firmly believe that obedience is at the foundation of EVERYTHING we do with our dogs!
I couldn't agree more. Not discounting the difficulty and training required for the obedience ring. Just pointing out that even the best trained dogs won't succeed in field trials if they cant mark and remember falls. There are things in training that can build on their marking and memory but they must "Have It" to begin with.

Back to the subject at hand. Limited registration....in theory, it was a good idea. In practice, there are way too many people out there who don't care about rules for it to work as intended.
Rules would always work great if everyone was honest.;)
 
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I couldn't agree more. Not discounting the difficulty and training required for the obedience ring. Just pointing out that even the best trained dogs won't succeed in field trials if they cant mark and remember falls. There are things in training that can build on their marking and memory but they must "Have It" to begin with.
It isn't the same, but we teach marking in obedience too. It's used for the go-outs and gloves. :)
 
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