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Discussion Starter #1
Hi, everyone!

I'm so VERY in the market for a Golden, and have been trying to do research. I have gone from, "Gee, we'll just pick up a $50 dog at the shelter," to "Hmmm, maybe I COULD swing "$1,500." :moreek:

Anyway. I was considering these folks:
http://www.freewebs.com/ranchodelavega/

The two parents are Molly and Samson.

On the upside: Molly is AKC, Samson is UKC. (I don't have full names or numbers to verify ANY of that.) If anything is wrong with the dog for the first two years ("general health guarantee"), they replace, IF you keep your dog fit. If you cannot care for the dog anymore, they want it back.

On the downside, they haven't been breeding for very long, and they say both dogs are rather new for them. As such, they don't have clearances, but say they will be getting them in the next few weeks.

Um...don't you get clearances BEFORE you breed the dogs?

I'm on their list to receive one of the puppies in mid-August, but I haven't put down any money yet.

My favorite breeder that I've found so far is this one:
http://www.heritagegoldens.com/

But I'm not sure I could ever afford them!

Red Flag City? Or honest breeder catching up with paperwork?
 

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Kate
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If they can't show you clearances, then I'd probably would be willing to pay $50 for the pup. NO more than that.

Shame on them for breeding prior to doing their homework. :no:

Ideally - if there is anything wrong with the dog in the first 2 years, they give you your money back and you still keep the dog. That contract is written in such a way because they know people are not likely to return a dog with major problems if they have already bonded with it. It's a bleep.
 

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Honestly, I didn't go to the site but can say, not honest. You never breed prior to final clearances. There are very few cases where a breeder will breed on prelims, but it is rare and the breeder is an expert in knowing the lines of the dog.

Seriously, shame on them.
 

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Where The Bitches Rule
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Red Flag City?

Says it all in my opinion.

You are absolutely correct in that clearances must be done BEFORE breeding a dog, never mind both dogs.
 

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the party's crashing us
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Ugg, keep looking. The first people sound completely clueless.
Christina Yohe with Heritage Goldens is a very good breeder!!!!!! Check her out.
Are the first people Rancho De La Vega or whatever -- charging $1500??? THAT IS A CRIME!!!!
 

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Shoregold
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If a breeder is going to take the time to have a website to announce their dogs why whouldn't they list the names of the dogs so the clearances can be looked up. Call names are not enought. When it comes to ranchodelavega I would walk away from this breeder very fast. No clearances then you might as well go to golden rescue and save a dog for a small donation. If you are willing to spend the money for a well breed dog then make sure everything is in order. A promise isn't enough when you not only invest your money but your heart when you fall in love with this sick puppy.
The Heritage goldens do look like they have some clearances. Some dogs are not up-to-date so it would depend who the parents were in the litter. Make sure they have all the clearances and when they are to be done. Good Luck
 

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Hi, everyone!

I'm so VERY in the market for a Golden, and have been trying to do research. I have gone from, "Gee, we'll just pick up a $50 dog at the shelter," to "Hmmm, maybe I COULD swing "$1,500." :moreek:

Anyway. I was considering these folks:
http://www.freewebs.com/ranchodelavega/

The two parents are Molly and Samson.

On the upside: Molly is AKC, Samson is UKC. (I don't have full names or numbers to verify ANY of that.) If anything is wrong with the dog for the first two years ("general health guarantee"), they replace, IF you keep your dog fit. If you cannot care for the dog anymore, they want it back.

On the downside, they haven't been breeding for very long, and they say both dogs are rather new for them. As such, they don't have clearances, but say they will be getting them in the next few weeks.

Um...don't you get clearances BEFORE you breed the dogs?

I'm on their list to receive one of the puppies in mid-August, but I haven't put down any money yet.

My favorite breeder that I've found so far is this one:
http://www.heritagegoldens.com/

But I'm not sure I could ever afford them!

Red Flag City? Or honest breeder catching up with paperwork?
I'm a newbie to this forum but as a Lab Breeder I think we all try to do the right thing if we're reputable breeders. I began all over again because there was something in the line I had bred to that I refused to take the chance of breeding my girls again.

IMO, all final clearances should be complete before breeding (age 2) however, quite a few breeders do breed on Prelims. Their choice what they want to do with their own line or kennel and I don't have to agree with it, but to have NO or incomplete final clearances (especially hips when elbows are clear) of is a big red flag IMO. Also, realize an AKC limited registration dog can go on full registration with UKC :( . Do your h/w on the differences between AKC and UKC. I know a lot of people happy with UKC, my biggest problem is the fact that AKC limited reg pups can be bred within the UKC legally. AKC and UKC are totally different organizations, familiarize yourself with them so you know what you're doing when researching a particular breeder.

As you can see the big difference between your favorite breeder and this breeder just by their websites, I think you probably have your answer.

If the fav breeder isn't close to you, perhaps they can refer someone in your area. It doesn't hurt to ask.

I would stay far away from #1 and look for a breeder like #2 (your fav) in your post.

I hope I'm not saying anything wrong, I'm giving you my opinion for what it's worth.

Best of luck, take your time and find the right breeder. You won't be sorry you did it in later years.

Best of luck!

Michelle - Newbie

PS I'm looking for a reputable breeder within 3 hours of my area (NNJ) for a very good friend, the main reason I'm here but I couldn't resist responding. You'll see a lot of breeders like that out there, just use common sense and what the ethical breeders on here are teaching you. :)
 

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Premium Member
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Thanks for chiming in Michelle, we appreciate input from knowledgeable breeders.
 

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Stay away from choice #1... I agree with the sentiment already expressed in this thread.

Michelle, welcome! We're glad to have you here! You will probably get a better response if you start a new topic in the section! :)
 

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Just thought I'd chime in...
I completely understand the need for health clearances! It is of a great importance to me, especially since so many of my dogs are working service or therapy dogs. Unfortunately, the pair came from some friends of ours who had an emergency situation with their family and were gracious enough to give these dogs to us- but the female was already bred. They both have a show and health clearanced background.
Appointments are already made for their clearances (the sire is already done, and papers are being sent in tomorrow) and will be done before the puppies go.
The male is in fact AKC registered, though he does indeed have a UKC background.
I agree that Heritage Goldens seem to be exemplary breeders. They show, have years of experience, and have all their clearances. You would not go wrong purchasing a puppy from them.
I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions, not start an argument with anyone. Again, I agree fully with the many responses, and yes, clearances SHOULD be done before breeding.
 

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SURPRISE! The breeder shows up. Welcome.

Just looked at websites and would have to recommend that you, kjwagner, keep looking if Heritage doesn't have anything available.
 

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If it is of such great importance to do clearances, then why would you not list hip/elbow/eye/heart clearances on each of your breeding stock on your website along with REGISTERED names that can be verified on OFA? When those important pieces of information are missing - people get a not so good feeling about the breeder. I notice 3 litters on your website tonight. None of the dogs can be verified for clearances when registered names aren't given.

And Sampson sired a puppy born in Dec. 09 (according to your website) which you kept the girl and have on your website. So that means he sired the litter in October 09. He is not listed on OFA and his pedigree is not listed on your website either. How old is he? IF he was bred before without clearances, why wasn't he cleared before this current litter is on the ground?

So many missing pieces of information on your website leads me to believe you haven't included them for a reason. Working, therapy, and show lines? How we would know? I would take some time to update your website with a lot more information on clearances if they are so important to you!

When I clicked on your ABOUT US - you make mention of the Golden Retriever Club of America with a link. Are you members as you quote what a SERIOUS HOBBY BREEDER is according to the GRCA? You failed to copy & paste the entire paragraph on the GRCA website:


SERIOUS HOBBY BREEDER.

The very best choice. The serious and dedicated hobby breeder regards his/her dogs as even more than a hobby, although the true fancier does not expect to make a profit. When someone is involved in dogs for the enjoyment of each individual animal, for participating in any of the many aspects of dogsport, and for producing the finest animals possible, the results are SUPERIOR. The best breeders acknowledge responsibility for each and every puppy produced, and stand behind every dog they have bred.

Unequivocally, your choice should be from the ranks of the SERIOUS HOBBY BREEDER. It is an interesting fact that poor quality puppies from pet shops and backyard breeders are often sold for the same price and sometimes even more than those purchased from the experienced hobby breeder. The question is: How does one recognize the responsible breeder? Presented below is a list of requirements the breeder should meet before you consider purchasing a puppy. Don't be afraid to confront the breeder with these requirements. It is your right, and you can rest assured that the dedicated breeder will respond positively and with pride.

THE FOLLOWING IS MISSING FROM YOUR WEBSITE:

The breeder should:

Belong to the Golden Retriever Club of America, a local Golden Retriever club, or an all-breed club. Ideally he/she should belong to all three; however, sometimes this is impossible. The reason for this requirement is that this sort of participation indicates depth of involvement. This breeder is exposed to other points of view, learns more about the breed and modern breeding practices, and is kept up to date on AKC rules and regulations.
Be involved in showing his/her dogs in the breed ring, the obedience ring, in hunting tests/field trials, agility, tracking, or in a combination of any of these. The reason for this requirement is that it means that the breeder is not working in a vacuum. The breeder who does not participate has no idea how good his/her dogs really are, and is deprived of the opportunity to share information and ideas with others. Showing provides the competition which encourages breeders to produce better dogs. The breeder who competes wants to prove how good his/her dogs are and is putting his/her breeding program on the line. This breeder is not relying on just a pedigree to indicate quality. Even if you do not want a competition animal, you deserve a companion that is the end result of a carefully planned litter; a puppy which received the same care as a potential champion. The breeder who competes in organized activities is known by others and has a reputation to uphold. This breeder will be as careful and honest in selling you your pet puppy as in selling show stock.
Be able to show you a clean environment; healthy, well-socialized puppies; and a dam with a good temperament. You should avoid: a) shy, whimpering, fearful puppies; b) puppies with dull coats, crusty or running eyes, signs of diarrhea, rashes or sores on their abdomens; c) signs of neglect, such as lack of water, pans of uneaten food, and dirty conditions; d) a breeder who will sell a puppy under seven weeks of age, as early separation from the dam and littermates can be very detrimental both psychologically and physically.
Give you a period of time in which to allow you to have the puppy examined by a veterinarian to determine its state of health, so that both of you are assured as to the condition of the puppy at the time of sale. If a problem should arise, it can then be quickly resolved.
Provide you with a record of the dates and types of vaccinations and de-worming done, feeding instructions, a 3-to 5-generation pedigree, and an AKC registration application to apply for registration of the puppy in your own name with the American Kennel Club (AKC). Sometimes the registration application is not available at the time you take your puppy home. If this is the case, have the breeder state on a dated, signed receipt of payment that the application will be sent to you as soon as possible. The registered names and AKC numbers of both parents, date of birth of the litter, and puppy's color and sex should be indicated. You can then contact AKC with complete information should there later be a problem with the papers.
Give you written instructions on feeding, training and care. This booklet was designed in part for that purpose. There are other materials that are useful; some are listed in Appendix B.
Be able to show you proof that both the sire and dam of the litter have had their hips X-rayed, and evaluated as normal by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) and/or PennHIP; have had their elbows X-rayed and evaluated as normal by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or a board-certified veterinary radiologist: have had their hearts examined by a board-certified veterinary cardiologist; and have had their eyes examined by a board-certified veterinary ophthalmologist within the last 12-18 months. The breeder should also be willing to answer your questions about any other possible hereditary problems, including but not limited to seizures, hypothyroidism, and skin problems or allergies.
Ask you what kind of dogs you have had in the past, and what happened to them; whether or not you have a fenced yard; and whether or not the dog will be allowed to be a house dog and a member of the family. Sincere breeders will be a bit hesitant to sell you a puppy until they know more about you, what you are looking for in a dog, and what lifestyle you have in mind for your dog. Having the best interest of the puppy at heart, reputable breeders will take great pains to place puppies properly the first time around. A returned puppy is a traumatic experience for all concerned, so the breeder who is always willing to accept a puppy back will try to make certain that a Golden is the breed for you.
Be able to give you references: the names of people who have purchased puppies in the past, the names of other breeders, and the veterinarian who provides care for the breeder's dogs.
Provide some sort of written contract and/or conditions of sale. Any warranty of quality or health of the dog, and any warranty against development of hereditary problems or show-ring disqualifications in an animal intended for showing or breeding, should be in writing. The warranty should be absolutely explicit and a signed copy should be provided to each party.
Both pedigree and registration papers are provided by reputable breeders at NO extra charge. The practice of charging extra for papers is forbidden by the AKC, and should be reported. This should not be confused with withholding papers until the dog has been spayed or neutered, which is how puppies not purchased for showing/breeding are sold by many reputable breeders.
Make it clear that his/her responsibility continues long after you have taken your puppy home, in fact as long as the dog is alive. Many dedicated breeders will ask that the dog be returned to them, or placed with new owners who meet their approval, if ever for any reason you are unable to keep the dog. They'll cheerfully be available for advice whenever needed, and can ease your way over many rough spots.
If your breeder meets all of these requirements you are in good hands. If you find yourself with a negative response to any of these requirements, think twice and discuss the situation with someone else. DON'T be impulsive and DO ask questions
 

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If it is of such great importance to do clearances, then why would you not list hip/elbow/eye/heart clearances on each of your breeding stock on your website along with REGISTERED names that can be verified on OFA? When those important pieces of information are missing - people get a not so good feeling about the breeder. I notice 3 litters on your website tonight. None of the dogs can be verified for clearances when registered names aren't given.

And Sampson sired a puppy born in Dec. 09 (according to your website) which you kept the girl and have on your website. So that means he sired the litter in October 09. He is not listed on OFA and his pedigree is not listed on your website either. How old is he? IF he was bred before without clearances, why wasn't he cleared before this current litter is on the ground?

So many missing pieces of information on your website leads me to believe you haven't included them for a reason. Working, therapy, and show lines? How we would know? I would take some time to update your website with a lot more information on clearances if they are so important to you!
Thank you for pointing out the missing information from my website. I'm still new to this website stuff, and am working on getting everything on there.
As for the puppy, I did not own the sire, or the dam, at the time that she was born, nor after she was born, nor for 6 months after that. I purchased her to train as a service dog, and it was only recently that I got the sire.
In reference to the GRCA checklist, the only thing on there that I do not have at this time is the OFA clearances, but I am making an honest effort to correct that. And I'd just like to plug, from this site : http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=22440
Again, I'm not trying to start any argument. I'm sorry if my posting on here is offensive to anyone. Everyone has to start somewhere, everyone makes mistakes, and I am open to constructive criticism.
 

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Most people start at the beginning. Not with many females, all being bred to one male, none with clearances.
"Show lines"? A champion many generations back does not a "show line" make. And to be brutally honest, none of the dogs pictured on the site are show quality, and structually, I wouldn't consider them breeding quality, either.

The homework, research, and help should have been donewell before producing dozens of puppies.
 

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Hmmm, so now Samson is Rico on your website? Just found this updated link on your website on Samson's page:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=243935

But the registered AKC#'s doesn't match?! And "Rico" had clearances done in 2008? You just said "Samson" was already done - the papers are being sent in tomorrow." I am confused??!!


And for someone who is new to 'this website stuff' - your About Us page has already been changed since my last post and you deleted the GRCA link. Since you didn't answer my question directly the first time - I will ask again: Are you a Golden Retriever Club OF America member? Guessing not after you deleted the link.
 
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