[LifeOfRiley]

Can you give too much?

Riley's on Evo Red right now and it's not going so well. I'm really wanting to put him on Orijen, but I just saw that both their adult and their 6 Fish formulas contain 1200 mg of glucosamine and 900 mg of chondroitin per kg. Wow.

So by my calculations (which may or may not be correct) there's about 1200 mg of glucosamine in 35 ounces of food -- roughly 4 cups. He'd be getting almost that amount daily, since he'd probably be getting somewhere between 3 - 3 1/2 cups per day.

That would be in addition to the Cosequin DS he's already on, at 500mg glucosamine / 400 mg chondroitin.

Is that something that should concern me? Is there a level at which point too much glucosamine can be harmful?

 

[Penny & Maggie's Mom]

according to my conversion table, there is .45 kg in a lb. If we round and say .5, then there would be roughly 2400 mg glucosamine in a pound of food. My crew gets about 100 mg glucosamine/ chondroitin daily.

 

[paula bedard]

I was wondering about joint supplements also. Ike's food has recently added joint supplements to it's formula. He's only 2 and I was worried about giving it to him if he doesn't need it. Is there an age too young to be on Joint Sup's if they aren't warranted?

 

[Maxs Mom]

I have been told it is hard to OD a dog (or any species) on glucosamine, they will remove what they do not need in their waste. What is in dog food is not necessarily 'enough' so supplementing too is a good idea.

As for what age. Here is my PERSONAL opinion. Glucosamine and chondroitin can possibly slow joint degradation. There is no proof it helps though everyone says it does (even me for my back) so there is no proof it can't slow the wear on joints either. However my equine vet says it can not hurt, and perhaps if "other" means of joint maintenance is needed it will enable that to work better. I plan to put my dogs on it when they reach maturity, around 18 months. Teddi was put on as soon as she was dx HD at 9 months, it is a supplement not a medication. I have not seen any issues in any of my animals being on it. My horse has been on for 10 years, my dogs for about 3-4 me just about a year and a half.

I feed Cosequin DS, when I feel Teddi needs "more" help because of her issues, I plan to up to Dausquin which is supposed to be better (more expensive too) but we have hopefully a LONG time of management so I plan to take slow and do what is needed when it is.

I think it is a safe easy supplement.

 

[LifeOfRiley]

I was wondering about joint supplements also. Ike's food has recently added joint supplements to it's formula. He's only 2 and I was worried about giving it to him if he doesn't need it. Is there an age too young to be on Joint Sup's if they aren't warranted?

From what I've always heard, the levels found in most foods aren't high enough to have an effect at all, one way or the other.

But I think most foods have a considerably lower level than Orijen. Like Gunner's Core Ocean only has 250/200. I don't think that amount is enough to do anything, really. I'd never seen a food that has 1200mg before, so I want to find out about that before making a switch.

 

[LifeOfRiley]

I have been told it is hard to OD a dog (or any species) on glucosamine, they will remove what they do not need in their waste.

I've heard that too, but one thing that concerns me is diabetes. I don't know if it would affect dogs the same way it does people, but I know my grandma couldn't take glucosamine because she was diabetic and her doctors said that it could make matters worse. I don't know if too much glucosamine could actually cause diabetes, or if it was just a matter of possible exacerbation when it's already present.
And like I said, I don't know if it would even carry the same concern with dogs.

 

[paula bedard]

From what I've always heard, the levels found in most foods aren't high enough to have an effect at all, one way or the other.

But I think most foods have a considerably lower level than Orijen. Like Gunner's Core Ocean only has 250/200. I don't think that amount is enough to do anything, really. I'd never seen a food that has 1200mg before, so I want to find out about that before making a switch.

I cannot find on the bag an amount/type for the supplements added to Ike's food, Merrick's Wilderness Blend, just the "Now with Vision, Joint, and Breath elements" Healthy Supplements: Vitamins and minerals

I really like this food, he's done very well on it and loves it. I was worried about the joint sup's added but I guess I don't need to be...
Here are the stats for his food: http://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/detail.php?c=14&s=20279

 

[Garfield]

according to my conversion table, there is .45 kg in a lb. If we round and say .5, then there would be roughly 2400 mg glucosamine in a pound of food. My crew gets about 100 mg glucosamine/ chondroitin daily.

To break it down farther, the Orijen 6 Fish formula specifies there are ~115 grams (.115 kgs) in one measured cup of food, so it would take almost 9 cups of food to reach a full 1200mg of glucosamine and 900mg of chondroitin. Therefore, there's really only 138 mg of glucosamine and 103 mg of chondroitin per cup, maybe enough to give a slight preventative edge to a young dog of average activity (and should not cause any issues for a healthy dog), but not enough to be therapeutic to any dog needing joint supplementation.

As to how much is too much, I've heard as much as 2500 mgs daily being used on larger dogs (though that is an unusually high amount). Unless the dog has diabetes or some other health issue, natural joint supplements are generally very safe and do not cause additional issues (with any excess eliminated in waste). The thing to be careful with re: joint supplements is that they are not regulated (even the "human" ones), so you really want to research the manufacturer, ingredients, sourcing, processing, etc. Also, the powder and liquid forms tend to be purer and better absorbed by the body (the pill forms almost always have fillers and unnecessary addivitives as well).

 

[Penny & Maggie's Mom]

To break it down farther, the Orijen 6 Fish fomula specifies there are ~115 grams (.115 kgs) in one measured cup of food, so it would take almost 9 cups of food to reach a full 1200mg of glucosamine and 900mg of chondroitin. Therefore, there's really only 138 mg of glucosamine and 103 mg of chondroitin per cup, maybe enough to give a slight preventative edge to a young dog of average activity (and should not cause any issues for a healthy dog), but not enough to be therapeutic to any dog needing joint supplementation.

As to how much is too much, I've heard as much as 2500 mgs daily being used on larger dogs (though that is an unusually high amount). Unless the dog has diabetes or some other health issue, natural joint supplements are generally very safe and do not cause additional issues (with any excess eliminated in waste). The thing to be careful with re: joint supplements is that they are not regulated (even the "human" ones), so you really want to research the manufacturer, ingredients, sourcing, processing, etc. Also, the powder and liquid forms tend to be purer and better absorbed by the body (the pill forms almost always have fillers and unnecessary addivitives as well).

That makes MUCH more sense. I had never heard of a food having anywhere near therapeutic dosages. Oh, and CORRECTION, my crew gets 1000 ( not 100 ) mg of gl /chon daily.

 

[Garfield]

That makes MUCH more sense. I had never heard of a food having anywhere near therapeutic dosages. Oh, and CORRECTION, my crew gets 1000 ( not 100 ) mg of gl /chon daily.

Whew! Thanks for the feedback as math & I rarely make sense!:bowl: It is astounding to see how little there in fact is in food (and Orijen has far more than most!) - if we had to feed therapeutic amounts, we'd all have 500 lb dogs!:uhoh:

p.s. Aha - thought you previously posted about using joint supplements with your dogs. Do you still use The Wholistic Pet Run Free?

 

[Penny & Maggie's Mom]

Whew! Thanks for the feedback as math & I rarely make sense!:bowl: It is astounding to see how little there in fact is in food (and Orijen has far more than most!) - if we had to feed therapeutic amounts, we'd all have 500 lb dogs!:uhoh:

p.s. Aha - thought you previously posted about using joint supplements with your dogs. Do you still use The Wholistic Pet Run Free?

I switch off between the Run Free, Cosequin DS and PhyCox. If we didn't have 500 lb dogs, we'd have $200 bags of food!!!!!

 

[LifeOfRiley]

To break it down farther, the Orijen 6 Fish formula specifies there are ~115 grams (.115 kgs) in one measured cup of food, so it would take almost 9 cups of food to reach a full 1200mg of glucosamine and 900mg of chondroitin.

Where are you seeing that? I can't find anything other than their 'guaranteed analysis' that lists 1200mg/900mg per kilogram. And a kilo, if you convert it all the way down, is a little over 4 cups.

 

[LifeOfRiley]

I cannot find on the bag an amount/type for the supplements added to Ike's food, Merrick's Wilderness Blend, just the "Now with Vision, Joint, and Breath elements" Healthy Supplements: Vitamins and minerals

I really like this food, he's done very well on it and loves it. I was worried about the joint sup's added but I guess I don't need to be...
Here are the stats for his food: http://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/detail.php?c=14&s=20279

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. I think Merrick is a good food and if he likes it and does really well on it, I wouldn't switch.

I think most companies are adding some level of joint supplements to their food now, so it would be pretty hard to find one that doesn't, anyway.

 

[Garfield]

Where are you seeing that? I can't find anything other than their 'guaranteed analysis' that lists 1200mg/900mg per kilogram. And a kilo, if you convert it all the way down, is a little over 4 cups.

Volume ounces (as measured by cup) are not directly convertable to weight ounces (as measured by scale) as the weight of a cup of any given thing will vary depending what thing is in the cup (i.e. a cup of each water and sugar have different physical weights as do different types of dog foods), so you have to physically weigh a cup of a specific dog food to know how many kilos are in a cup of that food (or in this case rely on the manufacturer for that info ). The Champion website kindly offers that there are 115 grams (.115 kg) in a 250ml (~ 8 oz) cup of their Orijen 6 Fish formula. From there, we can figure how much of each supplement is in a cup of that food via math: Dividing .115 kgs into 1 kg tells us that there are 8.7 cups to one kilogram of the food. Now that we have a true weight to volume conversion, we can then divide the amount of each the glucosamine and chondroitin in a kilo by the amount of cups in a kilo (1200mg/8.7 and 900mg/8.7 respectively) to find out how many mgs of each supplement are in a standard cup (which calculates to 138mgs glucosamine and 103mgs chondroitin per cup of that food).

 

[moverking]

My crew gets about 100 mg glucosamine/ chondroitin daily.

Eeek, Betty, I thought dosage was 20mg/lb....mine are close to 1500 mg/day divided doses!

Let me check...

 

[Penny & Maggie's Mom]

Eeek, Betty, I thought dosage was 20mg/lb....mine are close to 1500 mg/day divided doses!

Let me check...

DON'T PANIC!!!! I missed a zero.... mine are actually between 1000-1500 mg too

 

[moverking]

Whew....was worried mine might turn to stone:

 

[Garfield]

Eeek, Betty, I thought dosage was 20mg/lb....mine are close to 1500 mg/day divided doses!

Let me check...

That doesn't sound extreme for a dog that size that has some joint issues going on, though the 20 mg/pound is a generally intended as a treatment dose for a dog with moderate+ joint issues rather than preventative/maintenance dose. My 8YO (mildly arthritic) Golden is 80 pounds and has shown marked improvement in comfort & mobility off less than half that amount (adding more only seems to increase his urine output and stool bulk). But that's just my guy's case - you know your dogs and if that's the dosage that works best for them, then so be it!

 

[LifeOfRiley]

Volume ounces (as measured by cup) are not directly convertable to weight ounces (as measured by scale) as the weight of a cup of any given thing will vary depending what thing is in the cup (i.e. a cup of each water and sugar have different physical weights as do different types of dog foods), so you have to physically weigh a cup of a specific dog food to know how many kilos are in a cup of that food (or in this case rely on the manufacturer for that info ). The Champion website kindly offers that there are 115 grams (.115 kg) in a 250ml (~ 8 oz) cup of their Orijen 6 Fish formula. From there, we can figure how much of each supplement is in a cup of that food via math: Dividing .115 kgs into 1 kg tells us that there are 8.7 cups to one kilogram of the food. Now that we have a true weight to volume conversion, we can then divide the amount of each the glucosamine and chondroitin in a kilo by the amount of cups in a kilo (1200mg/8.7 and 900mg/8.7 respectively) to find out how many mgs of each supplement are in a standard cup (which calculates to 138mgs glucosamine and 103mgs chondroitin per cup of that food).

You lost me at volume ounces and physical weights. LOL. I had to figure all that out when comparing different enzyme powders for Gunner. I'm surprised that I didn't pull my hair out.

I'll trust your calculations. At 138mg per cup, the amount he'll be getting is basically equal to one more Cosequin tablet per day. And since he only gets one tablet now, I don't think it's anything to worry about.
Thank you!

 

[moverking]

That doesn't sound extreme for a dog that size that has some joint issues going on, though the 20 mg/pound is a generally intended as a treatment dose for a dog with moderate+ joint issues rather than preventative/maintenance dose. My 8YO (mildly arthritic) Golden is 80 pounds and has shown marked improvement in comfort & mobility off less than half that amount (adding more only seems to increase his urine output and stool bulk). But that's just my guy's case - you know your dogs and if that's the dosage that works best for them, then so be it!

You're absolutely right about it as a treatment dose. I stopped the Cosequin and used a Walmart supp for a few months and stated seeing some signs so went back on the Cosequin at 1500/day for 4-6 weeks and will then drop to 1/day as maintenance. Hmmm, increases stool bulk? How?