Force Fetch/Force Break

grrrick said:

Looking for all opinions on Force Fetching and methods used.

...I plan to pursue hunting titles and dabble in Field Trials, at least at the Derby and Qualifer level. I don’t have asperations of a AFC titles. Derby JAMs or a QAA sometime in his life would be considered a huge success. All of this is more for the fun of it and to supplement training, not to earn titles or ribbons.

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I'm going to be blunt about this because white washing the issue would not serve you. As a retired field trial pro, one of the lessons I learned was that if you want to win a Derby, prepare your dog so that he's doing solid Qualifying work before wasting entry fees on a Derby. If you want to win a Qual, get him working solidly on Open-level work, and so on.

My own patented saying that I repeat at every seminar I give is to "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do underwhelms him, not overwhelms him." Take this to the bank! Field trial judges know how to overwhelm competition dogs, and I mean good ones! If it were easy, where would the honor be in it? That's why it's so special to win those events! Go the distance.

grrrick said:

I’ve been told by well respected trainers that force fetching is a must and others have told me to take a “wait and see” approach.

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The "wait and see" advice usually comes from people who don't understand the real goals and purposes of force fetch. It's not just something trainers do to fix a problem. It's a fundamental building block in virtually all modern methods, and is the core of momentum.

grrrick said:

What sparked this thread was a comment that "Hotel4Dogs" made in a different post, saying a professional trainer recommended NOT force fetching her GR. I'm really curious to find out the reasons he gave you.

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Again, being frank here, what it means to be a pro is that you take money for it. Being a pro doesn't necessarily mean you're good at it. I know, that sounds pretty harsh. But...been there, done that.

You've stated high goals for your pup. My hat's off to you. I respect and admire you for setting good goals for your dog. The last year I ran the circuit I put 5 dogs on the National Derby list, all of which were QAA as Derby dogs. Do it all. Do your best. Give your pup all the skills. He has a big job to do, and both of you should have a great time doing it! Doing it with less than the best tools is like someone asking you to build a bridge with a chisel.

grrrick said:

Also looking for opinions from others that have gone through this. I've seen enough Labs and CB Retrievers work and can see how some of them would require it, or even a hard headed Golden, but I'm thinking a wait and see approach may be best. Goldens can be a little different than the other retrievers. Your thoughts?

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My boy, "Moose"

I've owned about 80% Labs, 20% Goldens as my personal dogs. I've trained dogs of every retriever breed. I force fetched every one of them; the full course. I recommend it for all dogs that will be trained to perform high level fieldwork.



But, I will stipulate that you should study this skill set well. Learn to understand how it's done, and what are the goals and purposes of it. My system is very detailed, and I've fielded so many questions on this subject over the years that I wrote a book entirely devoted to it called SmartFetch. I subsequently made a 2 disc, 2 hour & 18 minute DVD of the same name. It's surely up to you which program you follow. But follow one fully. You'll always be glad you did. You will always regret it if you don't.

Best of luck. Please let me know if I can be of help.

EvanG
www.rushcreekpress.com

Yes. For this dog, and for any retriever that will retrieve for a living, I suggest a full course of force fetch. Below is an important quote from SmartFetch:

The Myths

More appropriately, there are more misperceptions than myths surrounding the process of force fetching retrievers. I think it starts with the term force. To the novice trainer/dog lover that word summons visions of a dog being thrashed or brutalized in some way or another. There are stories, some true, some contrived, about harsh measures being used to force fetch, like using bottle openers, pliers, etc. Nothing like that will appear as a suggestion in this text because it has nothing to do with how I approach it. Let’s start there and clear the air about that subject.

Ø Force: In retriever training this is a term that describes the use of pressure to achieve a sure and reliable response. Influence that moves something, says the dictionary. The amount of pressure is specified more by the dog than by the trainer. Often very little actual pressure is needed.
Ø Pressure: something that affects thoughts and behavior in a powerful way, usually in the form of several outside influences working together persuasively.

Nowhere in any definition of these terms is abuse or brutality, nor should it be. Like many things, force and pressure are either good or bad depending on how they are applied.

Another misperception is often the assumption that retrievers do all of their retrieving functions by nature, and shouldn’t need to be forced. Frankly, about all that dogs do by nature is to chase after motion, and follow their curiosity about what they smell. We cultivate the rest, both passively and through the use of pressure. Even the most basic puppy-fetch conditioning we all do to get them started is an act we contrive. These dogs retrieve out of self-centered impulses. Bringing birds to us is not a nature-driven act. Thankfully, it can be easily engineered!

Take a well-bred pup and turn him loose in a fenced yard for three years, or so. Leave him strictly to the influences of nature. Then go out one day and see how well he does on the type of retrieving work that would make him useful in game conservation. Compare his work to even an average gun dog with amateur training. How do you think it would come out? No brainer! Whatever natural gifts a dog may have, without some kind of guidance they will tend to be of little value.

It’s not a negative statement that retrievers need training to do the work we need them to do in the field and marsh. That type of work requires a dog to have good natural abilities, but also to be taught how to put those abilities to work because the skills and functions we require are our idea. We invented them. It’s okay. That’s why dogs and trainers are so often referred to as a team. Both contribute to the effort.

The Reality


First of all, force fetch is more than just one thing. It is a definable process with clear goals. But, within the process are several steps or phases. Those steps will be laid out later, but first let’s examine the goals.

• To establish a standard for acceptable mouth habits.
• To provide the trainer with a tool to maintain those habits.
• To provide the trainer with a tool to assure compliance with the command to retrieve.
• To form the foundation for impetus (momentum).
• Pressure conditioning.

Mouth habits include such important items as fetching on command, even when your dog may be distracted, or moody, or any number of things that might interfere with compliance. Sure, you may get away for years without having such problems, but being smart and being lucky are not the same thing. Force fetch gives you a tool to handle this when it comes up, plus some insurance that it is less likely to come up due to this training.

Along with compulsion issues we need to mention a proper hold, and delivery on command. If my pheasant is punctured I want it to be from pellets, not teeth. That actually covers some ground in all of the first three categories.

Let’s spend a little time on number four. Lots of people use the terms momentum and style interchangeably. I think it’s important to distinguish between the two because of how they relate to this subject. Force fetch is the foundation of trained momentum, and provides a springboard into subsequent steps of basic development. Style has little to do with this. Here’s why.

Ø Style: A combination of speed, enthusiasm, and just plain hustle that you see in a dog going toward a fall. Style is the product of natural desire and athleticism.
Ø Momentum: In a retriever, the compulsion from the dog’s point of origin; defined in the dictionary as “the force possessed by a body in motion, Measure of movement: a quantity that expresses the motion of a body and its resistance to slowing down. It is equal to the product of the body’s mass and velocity”.

Clearly, this quality is a tremendously valuable asset in the running of blinds and overcoming diversion pressure. It even applies to running long marks, and/or marks through tough cover or terrain. When you need a dog to drive hundreds of yards against the draining influences of terrain, cover, re-entries, and all of the real and perceived factors that are so commonly momentum-robbing, having a dog with a reservoir of momentum is immensely valuable. Force fetch is where that reservoir is established, and can be built upon.

From the foundation of a forced fetch most modern methods progress through stages that continue to build on this principle. Stick fetch, Collar Condition to fetch, Walking fetch, Force to pile, and Water force are all extensions of the work we do in ear pinch or toe hitch, which are popular means to get it all going. When a dog has finished such a course the result is an animal far more driven, with much more resolve to overcome obstacles and distance and distractions.

Lest we forget ~

I am not suggesting that we harm or abuse dogs in any of this force work I’ve spoken of. The late Jim Kappes said, “A properly forced dog shouldn’t look forced”. I completely agree. Momentum and style are distinct terms, each with their own meanings, as pertains to retrievers. I firmly believe that both are traits that should co-exist in a well-trained retriever.

This is why I say that it's important to learn about what force fetch really is, and what are its goals and purposes. It helps field trainers so much in so many ways over a dog's entire career. All advanced skill work is built on it.

EvanG