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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am almost ready make a deposit on a english cream golden retriever. The website and FB page for the breeder looks good, and the breeder is not allowing visits as the puppies are very young right now(3 weeks) which is understandable.
These are champion bloodline puppies and are priced very high at $4000. I noticed on the website for the Sire for the puppy I am looking at (the sire is from a different out of town breeder) , and the puppies on that website for the same sire (a different dam) are listed for $2950.
Looks like I am either missing something on how the breeders decide the price or I will be overpaying by more than a $1000 for similar puppies??

Also, I do not know very well how to read the test results on k9data , but noticed genetic testing missing for the dam , I was able to see that her other offspring is Icinthyosis carrier , so was told that the puppy I am looking at will be a carrier too. Also the tests are old, and do not seem to be updated since last year. Also the Sire has following mentioned in his report "Cataract E1 Suspect not Inherited " which I was told is not an issue as well as long as both parents do not have the same health issues.
The age for the sire on the report for hip test etc is 14 months (while I read somewhere that the tests are valid only after 2 years of age?)

Can anyone please take a look at let me know if any of the above are red flags(I might be over thinking too as I am very new to all this !!! ). I need to make a decision asap , so would be grateful if anyone can help me with this. Thank you.

Website:Home page ⋆ Texas Rose English Goldens | Texas Based English Cream Golden Retriever Puppies Breeders
Sire: Pedigree: Tramin Rikki Tikki Tavi
Dam: Pedigree: Kauffmans Gracie Rose
 

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Don’t place a deposit on this litter. Here’s another thread for you to read through regarding Tramin:

 

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I wouldn't pay $4,000 for a dog with zero clearances behind him. English cream marketing isn't new. You'd think by now there would be dogs that fit that type that are GRCA compliant instead of keep importing dogs from the Ukraine.

As it stands, Tramin Rikki Tikki Tavi is GRCA compliant if you give grace for the eye clearance being expired (maybe they did it and haven't sent it in yet, idk)

On the dam, though, I'd like to see eyes. Last done 2019.

The dam, also doesn't have generations of clearances behind her. Her father was imported from Russia.

Do you know the dam of the other (cheaper) litter? Have you asked the breeder why the puppies are priced differently?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
No, I have not asked the breeder about the price difference.
She keeps telling me she has lot of people waiting in line for these puppies, so I am not sure if she will be ok with such questions. We did ask her why it's priced so high - and she mentioned that most breeders she knows charge the same , and also that she puts in lot of time and effort caring for the little pups in her home.

Breeder did mention to me that eyes were clear on the dam when I had checked with her on the Sire's eye result("Cataract E1 Suspect not Inherited " ) , do I still need to ask for a latest eye report?

The puppies are really cute and my kids are excited for it. I am not able to find other pups in my area currently with good health clearances and current availability. We looked at lab retriever pups too, but that breeder did not have any health testing done on dam and sire, so price was lower for those lab puppies ($1800)
 

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It’s better to wait and get a pup with documented health clearances than bend to the kids wishes and end up with a pup that’s most likely going to have health issues and might not have a long life. It’s tough with the kids because they don’t know better, but luckily with the information from the other posters, you do. Also waiting for the right pup is a good lesson for the kids, so they learn that waiting for the right thing is better than jumping into the wrong thing. As for cute, don’t use that as a qualifier because every puppy on the planet is cute! If you’re going with a reputable, ethical breeder you’re looking at about a year. I used the experts on this forum (I’m definitely not one) to vet breeders and parent dogs. Like I mentioned it took me almost a year from finding the most perfect breeder/parent dogs to bringing Archie home at 8-weeks. Definitely worth the wait! Best of luck in your search!
 

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No, I have not asked the breeder about the price difference.
She keeps telling me she has lot of people waiting in line for these puppies, so I am not sure if she will be ok with such questions.
That's a marketing tactic to create a sense of urgency and FOMO. "Going Going Gone! Get it while you can!" You can see this in the housing market right now. Buyers everywhere. Very few selling. People are buying houses with cash, sigh unseen, no inspection, nothing. If a breeder takes offense at your questions, it's not a breeder you want to support. A breeder should be offering up this information readily.

Breeder did mention to me that eyes were clear on the dam when I had checked with her on the Sire's eye result("Cataract E1 Suspect not Inherited " ) , do I still need to ask for a latest eye report?
Yes. Ask for the most recent eye clearance and see when it was dated.
 

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So you can have something to compare prices with, my dog came from a super well known and well respected breeder in the world of breeding and he was $2500. I’m in CA and we flew to WA to pick Archie up.
 

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@BlazenGR - I thought that all OFA clearances listed on K9Data need to be hard linked to OFA to be listed?

The sire listed above - I tried following links but they went nowhere - which is odd to me?

Oh! I just copy/pasted the links into OFA to get there. The registration # on OFA is not the AKC one.
 

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So… just so that you make an informed decision…

The average price range for well-bred Golden puppy in the US right now is $2000-$3500. A few breeders might be asking as much as $4000, but I’d say they are taking advantage of the “hot” market (so I question their ethics).

My definition of “well-bred” is both parents and the majority of ancestors have ALL the clearances proscribed by the GRCA Code of Ethics, plus the DNA tests, mulitiple championships in the first three generations (ideally at least the sire and grandsires, but some of the females should ideally be conformation champions as well (the champion titles behind these dogs are mostly/all Eastern European ones that aren’t very hard to get... So take them with a grain of salt!). Most also breed infrequently, raise The puppies in their home, screen all the puppy buyers to ensure the puppies are going to good homes, provide lifetime support to their puppy buyers, will take the puppy or dog back at ant time and for any reason to ensure it never ends up in a shelter, etc.

These dogs and breeder a definitely falling short of what you should expect to be getting for $4000 (or even half that amount). But, they’re also not the worst dogs ive seen… they have more clearances than many dogs being bred by breeders who advertise “English Cream.” I think what would worry me the most is that the dam only has a “practitioner” heart clearance (it should have been done by a cardiologist) and I see nothing on OFA that indicates that her ancestors had heart clearances. Heart issues can cause an apparently young and healthy dog to drop dead without warning, so it’s not something I would take a chance on.

In the end though, it’s up to you, your budget, your timeline, and your comfort with risk…
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I think what would worry me the most is that the dam only has a “practitioner” heart clearance (it should have been done by a cardiologist) and I see nothing on OFA that indicates that her ancestors had heart clearances. Heart issues can cause an apparently young and healthy dog to drop dead without warning, so it’s not something I would take a chance on.
Oh gosh. I did not know it needs to be done by a cardiologist. I will check, thank you.

Looks like many things are missing/outdated/incorrectly done in the k9data report :-(
 

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No, I have not asked the breeder about the price difference.
She keeps telling me she has lot of people waiting in line for these puppies, so I am not sure if she will be ok with such questions. We did ask her why it's priced so high - and she mentioned that most breeders she knows charge the same , and also that she puts in lot of time and effort caring for the little pups in her home.

Breeder did mention to me that eyes were clear on the dam when I had checked with her on the Sire's eye result("Cataract E1 Suspect not Inherited " ) , do I still need to ask for a latest eye report?

The puppies are really cute and my kids are excited for it. I am not able to find other pups in my area currently with good health clearances and current availability. We looked at lab retriever pups too, but that breeder did not have any health testing done on dam and sire, so price was lower for those lab puppies ($1800)
I’m not saying this breeder is lying, demand is so high in general for puppies that there ARE probably many other people who are waiting to buy a puppy for $4000 whose parents are not GRCA code of ethics compliant, and whose grandparents are not because they’re in Ukraine, which has its own standards and not a publicly accessible database like OFA so you can verify if they even followed the typical health clearances for Ukraine (those would be FCI, a European organization).
On the other hand $4000 is also the highest end for the breeders who DO follow all the code of ethics guidelines on health clearances and the prior generations have as well, plus actually showing their own dogs vs bragging about past generations of Serbian and Romanian, and Ukrainian champions. And you will be hard pressed to find a breeder marketing their puppies as English Cream who does all the proper health clearances.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thank you for all your inputs. I checked with the breeder regarding all the concerns as mentioned by you all, and she replied back that I should find another breeder whom I can trust !

She did mention that she has all the reports for eye and heart sitting on her desk, so I have no idea why they are not available online on k9data or being shared with clients directly.

These puppies are beyond cute, and I hope I will be able to find one soon from a reputable breeder. Please share any reputed breeders in Texas for English cream golden retrievers or lab retrievers (I live in Austin) who provide all the health clearances and also hopefully charge reasonable. Thank you!
 

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Thank you for all your inputs. I checked with the breeder regarding all the concerns as mentioned by you all, and she replied back that I should find another breeder whom I can trust !

She did mention that she has all the reports for eye and heart sitting on her desk, so I have no idea why they are not available online on k9data or being shared with clients directly.

These puppies are beyond cute, and I hope I will be able to find one soon from a reputable breeder. Please share any reputed breeders in Texas for English cream golden retrievers or lab retrievers (I live in Austin) who provide all the health clearances and also hopefully charge reasonable. Thank you!
Well, as the saying goes “trust but verify”. And the CoE states “Report should be recorded in an approved online database as described above.” If she chooses not to follow that part and publish the certs on OFA, but keep them on her desk, she shouldn’t be surprised or offended by prospective buyers doing their homework by asking to see a scanned copy.

If you’re particularly looking for a puppy with European lines, here’s a forum thread that might help

You’ll find that breeders who are involved in their local club, showing and competing typically don’t use the term “english cream” which is just a marketing term, although they might say English style, English type, and if you look at their dogs on k9data, you can see which Europeans kennels are back in the pedigree. Tramin (I think breeder is named Elena Ushena?) exports a LOT of puppies and young adults to US, that’s why you’ll see them a lot, as well as dogs from Serbian, Romania, Russia, those kennels seem to be less choosy and happy to export dogs for $$$ especially young adults with maybe a Junior Ch or Ch from a small Eastern European country that they can sell for a lot of money to those eager to start breeding right away.
 

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All of the red flags as everyone has already told you, and the breeder cutting you off when you ask questions, run don't walk away from this.

Also, be open to breeders who are not breeding solely for coat color. You should be most concerned about all the proper health clearances being place for the sire and dam, and preferably in 2 to 3 generations behind them, rather than a white coat. Look for breeders who do all the clearances, and are also competing in some venue with their dogs, not just breeding puppies and nothing else.

You may have to travel, but there are good breeders in Texas. You can do a search in this forum for Texas Breeders and find posts for many. These are just a few.

Emery Golden Retrievers in Houston, Camoflage Goldens, Razzle Golden Retrievers.
Look up the breeder referral page on Greater Houston Golden Retriever Club

@Watsundance there are several threads discussing breeders in Texas. If you search the forum they should come up. Anyway, here's a list of my personal favorites in the DFW area: Colleen Maddox (Dogwood Springs), Marlo Grayson (Grace N Goldens), and Teresa Mckenna (Elkcreek). In the Austin area I recommend Mia Nieman (Amica) and Pat Simpson (Scion). Out of state, but still within driving distance, I recommend Marissa Hendrix (Arkgold) - she's my breeder. All are wonderful and follow the GRCA code of ethics.
 

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I am almost ready make a deposit on a english cream golden retriever. The website and FB page for the breeder looks good, and the breeder is not allowing visits as the puppies are very young right now(3 weeks) which is understandable.
These are champion bloodline puppies and are priced very high at $4000. I noticed on the website for the Sire for the puppy I am looking at (the sire is from a different out of town breeder) , and the puppies on that website for the same sire (a different dam) are listed for $2950.
Looks like I am either missing something on how the breeders decide the price or I will be overpaying by more than a $1000 for similar puppies??

Also, I do not know very well how to read the test results on k9data , but noticed genetic testing missing for the dam , I was able to see that her other offspring is Icinthyosis carrier , so was told that the puppy I am looking at will be a carrier too. Also the tests are old, and do not seem to be updated since last year. Also the Sire has following mentioned in his report "Cataract E1 Suspect not Inherited " which I was told is not an issue as well as long as both parents do not have the same health issues.
The age for the sire on the report for hip test etc is 14 months (while I read somewhere that the tests are valid only after 2 years of age?)

Can anyone please take a look at let me know if any of the above are red flags(I might be over thinking too as I am very new to all this !!! ). I need to make a decision asap , so would be grateful if anyone can help me with this. Thank you.

Website:Home page ⋆ Texas Rose English Goldens | Texas Based English Cream Golden Retriever Puppies Breeders
Sire: Pedigree: Tramin Rikki Tikki Tavi
Dam: Pedigree: Kauffmans Gracie Rose
Neither sire nor dam have CoE clearances. Both are missing a cardiologist heart, his hips/elbows were done underaged if at all (since they didn't spend the minimal $s to put on OFA) . She lacks a current eye cert. And neither has any depth or breadth of clearances so I am of the opinion you are a lucky person she sent you packing when you inquired further (and I'm sure you realize this is not normal breeder behavior and indicates more to hide). Pricing is absurd when you can get (real)CH sired/titled dam with ALL clearances for many generations both back and wide for much less. And from a breeder who wants you to know the pedigree as well as you can given it's a new study for you.
 

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she replied back that I should find another breeder whom I can trust !
This was good advice.

She did mention that she has all the reports for eye and heart sitting on her desk, so I have no idea why they are not available online on k9data or being shared with clients directly.
Do you actually believe her? I am glad you are passing on this breeder but if you are really this naive you will likely be taken in by the next puppy mill breeder anyway.
 
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