Golden Retriever Dog Forums banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Joe Hill
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Ok so I'm not good at asking for help for several reasons:

- I have worked with dogs for almost 10 years on and off; very successfully. It's always come very naturally to me and I've had a lot of success with dogs and built a lot of bonds quickly with my leadership and lovingness.
- My step-father is as an award-winning German Shepherd trainer in Indianapolis and he is my first line of assistance.
- I'm a man.

All of that said openly, when I do ask for help, I tend to not stop. So I'm really hoping that I can find the help I'm seeking here from some experienced dog owners. My biggest vice right now is that while I've worked with many adult dogs, I have never worked with a puppy before; let alone owned one.

So.. if you're still reading, I'm going to dive in to my 2 biggest problems so far.

1. Crate Training
Here's a journal of all of the time's we've had him in the crate in the first 48 hours and how he did in those times.

- Monday, 8 PM - Had him in for about 20 minutes during dinner (Goal: Start warming him up to the idea of being confined). He whined for about 5 minutes and went to sleep. Stayed asleep for the rest of dinner.

-Monday, 10 PM - Had him in through the night in our bedroom (Goal: Get him to sleep in the crate and get him to let us know when we need to take him out.) This time it went really well. He whined for 5-10 minutes but went to sleep. He never whined through the night to indicate he had to pee, even though he was awake and moving around a little from time to time. He was moving around a little more than normal around 2:30 AM so I got up, took him out to pee. He went and I got him back into his crate. A couple minutes of whining (I got the feeling that wanted to play when we were out, even though I was keeping it strictly business) but he went right back to sleep and so did I.

- Tuesday, 7:30 AM - Had to leave for work. Put him in his crate and he cried until I left. I understand pack-abandonment is something he just doesn't understand, but I've gotta be able to pay for him to live for the next 10 years! He was going to be in until noon, because I worked out with my management to work from home in the afternoons for the next few weeks to help him adjust. However, I was actually feeling under the weather and decided to come home. He wasn't crying when I got home at 10 AM or so.

Through the day I spent time crating him for short amounts of time periodically to try to get him more used to it. He would always cry for a few minutes and then stop. The longest he was in was for an hour and a half. I was in my home office with the door open (which is in site of his crate).

Tuesday, 10 PM - This time we left it in the living room. We knew he needed to go out once through the night and I was really concerned out of the gate with him developing some separation anxiety type issues down the road, so I wanted him to learn to sleep in the living room not just as a puppy, but through his adult life. He cried and cried and cried from 10 to midnight. I got up and covered his crate; I've heard that some dogs really take to the darkness of having their crate helpful gives them a feeling of privacy. No help. I tried leaving him for another hour, hoping he would cry himself to sleep. I came in the living room and sat on the couch. After a few minutes of listening to his crying, I left out a stern 'enough'. He listened well. I laid on the couch and would give the same stern command when he started whimpering through the night but he really chilled out with me in here. I was able to finally get to sleep on the couch for about a half-hour before my alarm went off to take him out. He went potty right away and again, wanted to play. Again; strictly business.

He obviously isn't comfortable being away from his pack right now. Or, probably better said, he doesn't understand being separated from his pack right now. How do I get him used to being crated through the night, and day, without all of the whining when we're not right there to tell him to stop? Can I keep him in the bedroom for now without causing separation issues down the road?

2. Walking

Like with the first night in the crate, the first day on the leash was AMAZING for a puppy. He picked it up right away. We went on several walks of about 30 minutes. Took him to this big grassy field with just his leash dragging and he played and played; like a puppy should! Then on day 2, his first walk was pretty good. Since then, he just stops. He sits. He lays. He looks at us like we're stupid. He listens to me more than his momma but she's never worked with dogs and because I was sick, I spent his first full day with him all day. But don't mistake this, he does it with me to. I can't tell if he's defying us out of puppy stubbornness, if he just isn't sure what we want or even if he's just tired of walking or if the sidewalk is hurting his little puppy paw pads. I'm just not sure. One thing I do see consistency with, though, is that when he stops, he's done. I've tried picking him up and taking him to another area: no help. When he stops in one area, he's done everywhere.

How do I get him to pick up and start walking again when he decides to sit and stop walking?

I'm really looking forward to some response/conversation on this. We need you guys because 6 more months of this sleepless frustration will make me lose my sanity. Please help me!
 

·
Super Moderator Leader
Joined
·
48,902 Posts
Hi, welcome to the forum, glad you've joined us.

Congratulations on your new puppy.

How old is your pup and how long has he been with you?

I read in your post about crate training the first 48 hours, I am guessing he hasn't been with you too long yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,503 Posts
Can't answer on 1 as I've never had a "puppy" puppy. Tayla was 4 months old. The walking thing I can relate to. First I believe the rule is 5 minutes for every month. So if he is 2 months old he should be walking for 10 minutes at a time. 30 minutes may be too much at one time. Try cutting it back and seeing how he does. With Tayla when she stopped and she still does at almost 3 she is telling me she is tired, hot, etc. I wait a few minutes then encourage her with a fun happy voice and a treat. With a puppy you may try those and calling him to you as you turn to run away. Always worked for us. Good luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,077 Posts
On the crate issue a couple of things occur to me:
Look up "crate games" online and try some of those fun methods to get your puppy to create positive associations with his crate: You want him to walk into it with his own four little paws.
As for the night time, I do recommend keeping him in your room. I found it made Thor a lot happier. In the long run, it'll be what you're comfortable with. My 15 month old isn't crated any longer but he still sleeps in my room which I'm totally fine with. When I travel he adapts very well to spending the night in my daughter's bedroom. He just loves to be near his people and he always will: he's a golden.
You don't say how old he is. You may need to have someone come in and take him out more than once during the work day if you work a typical schedule. I think even a 4.5 hour stretch in the daytime is long if he's around 2 months. As he matures you will be able to lengthen the periods and have just one midday break. Just remember: just because he can spend many hours in the crate at nighttime while sleeping, it doesn't follow that he'll be ready to pull the same length of time during the day.
Good luck, and feel free to ask for more help when he gets to the land shark stage?. I had a GS puppy before and his play biting and mouthiness were nothing compared to my golden's. You may get lucky with that and not have a very mouthy puppy; otherwise, know that it's normal and your puppy isn't the devil in golden fur.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,628 Posts
First off - throw out any training mentality for German Shepherds - Goldens are different dogs. Also this is a baby - not an adult, as you found out.

Crating - I take it the breeder did not work on crate training with him, so you have to. The whining at first is normal for a lot of pups, they crave attention, it will get better.

He is a baby, he should not be crated more than 1-2 hours during the day at that age. If he is in the 8 week range of age, he will need to go potty about every 20-30 minutes during the day. I know a lot of people have to work and they have to put their pups into a crate for longer periods, so going by my experience, I really don't know how they do it. Do you have somebody that can come in and let puppy out for potty when you are at work? Is your wife working full time as well?

At night, yes, he will most likely wake you up to go potty, mine did. Try giving him a treat when putting him in the crate, positive reinforcement. You should really put the crate into the bedroom with you guys at night. He needs the company and no, it won't create separation anxiety problems.

Walking - I don't know about walking an entire half an hour with a pup that young, I think playtime is more important right now, especially since your pup is not fully vaccinated yet and can catch diseases.

Have you taken him to the vet yet? Try not to let him down on the floor/ground at the vet office, pet stores or in areas frequented by other dogs.

Lastly, patience, patience, patience. He is a baby, he has to learn a lot, he does not understand what you expect of him yet, so don't expect too much of him.
He will have potty accidents, he will be a biting bundle of energy, especially when teething. He will be naughty and chew on stuff, important to distract him with enough chew toys and lots of attention. Bored dogs will seek mischief.

I could think of so many other things, but I leave it at that. My pup is 8 months old - so things are fresh in my memory, LOL.

Good luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
921 Posts
We crate trained both our dogs in our room and there has been no separation issues. Once they adjust to it they will even go seek it out to just go sleep in there. It took about a week for River to adjust to the kennel. You can try a kong with a nice frozen yummy in it. Just patience with that it will get easier. For leash I didn't take both my dogs out until the vet gave a go ahead. I put a short lead on and they got to drag it around and we practiced training exercises through out the day. Play and getting the basics learned at this young age should tire your puppy out. We love pictures of new little ones.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5 Posts
OK, here are my tips.

Crating
It's a personal belief of mine that crating dogs in the long-term is, for want of a better word, upsetting. After a few months (I'm going to say maximum 3), I don't believe the dog should ever be crated in the home environment again. Relying on a crate after that point basically suggests a lack of dedication on the owner/trainer's part. Yes, the dog is an animal, but you have for more success and it is much more enriching for your relationship and integration of the dog with the family if the crate is packed away asap, literally. My pups have been crated for the first week home only, and usually only at night, or if I absolutely cannot supervise for short periods of time, and only when they are tired enough to fall asleep in the crate. I use crates for the first week to help with potty training during the night. (everything following is my own opinion) After that, the puppy should sleep in its own bed in your bedroom, and you should wake up every hour to two hours during the night to check that the pup is fine or whether it is awake and needs to go to the toilet. I have only ever had one accident during the night by a puppy in the past, and that was due to me forgetting to set my alarms before falling asleep, so I didn't wake up to take him out (I'm a heavy sleeper).

After about 3 weeks out of the crate, by about 3 months of age, the pup can hold throughout the night and I have usually experienced them waking me at the exact same time every morning to go outside. From this point onwards, once they have established a crystal night routine for potty (once in morning), the bed can slowly be moved from your bedroom. Move it slowly toward the bedroom door, out the door, and eventually down stairs if you wish.

Despite what popular trainers say, I don't advocate leaving the dog to whine or cry if it is uncomfortable. Maybe I am humanising them or love them 'too much', but in my experience, after a few months, the dog wants to sleep downstairs anyway. And if they don't, then I don't have a problem with them sleeping upstairs as long as it doesn't disturb me, and it never has. It's up to you, but I would say that it is much healthier for the dog if you are around more to keep them out of the crate rather than crating them during dinner times or other times during the day. I simply don't find that necessary. There are better ways of training a pup to do what you desire of it. Other than for toilet training or for short periods of time, crating is never my method of choice. My future pups will only be crated for the first week or two during night times once they are tired enough to just fall asleep in there so it doesn't distress them.

Walking
Before 4 months, you can't expect the puppy to know at all how to walk. If it is walking more with one person than another, its simply because they are more excited by the other's energy. A 10 week puppy should have no more than 10 minutes of lead walking per day, and a 20 week puppy should have no more than 20 minutes. More than that on pavement will damage the paws and overtire them. If they are already genetically predisposed to dysplasia it will aggravate the condition in the future. They can, however, run around for as long as they like in an open area without being walked on the lead. Obviously, once they are tiring, its home time.

Pups lie down during walks when they are tired. If it really isn't tiredness (you will know this best, how was the pup before leaving for the walk), lure them to move when treats. Loads and loads of praise, sound like a middle school girl, literally. If treats don't work, use better ones haha. Dog treats have never really worked with my pups for walking and recalls, but once I introduced hotdog slices, darn, the next day they were walking and coming back like angels.

As far as walking goes, the pup will pick it up. After about 4.5 months it should really come naturally to them.
 

·
Riley
Joined
·
1,023 Posts
One thing you need to realize is the very large difference between GSDs and Goldens. GSDs are a guardian breed (along with a working breed). One defining characteristic is that they have been bred to think independently - to see a situation and act upon without being commanded. This is what makes them excellent police dogs. I'm sure you know this.

Goldens are very different. As a retriever, Goldens have been bred to stuck by their people, to bring things to their people, and just to generally revere their people. You'll need to remember these fundamental differences in raising your pup. I know if I tried to train my moms GSD pup like my golden, I'd have a mess on my hands.

That said, I see nothing wrong with your crating ideas EXCEPT the sleeping out of your bedroom. While you can train your golden to accept it, typically most hate it and cry the whole time. It shouldn't cause any separation anxiety issues. As an adult, your golden may choose to sleep away from you in the living room. But it's very hard for a golden puppy to accept that.

As for crating "too long"... When I first got Z I was still in my spring semester, and I'll admit I had to kennel her longer than suggested at times. It will increase potty training and you'll have some messes to clean up, but it won't be long until they're old enough to hold it. It's not ideal, but sometimes it can't be helped. That being said, follow other peoples advice and avoid it if at all possible.

Walking: you have a BABY! Would you expect a 1 year old to walk for 30 minutes? Because at 8 weeks, pups are essentially 1 in human years. Go easy on your pup. If he's done, he's done. Accept it and try again later.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,665 Posts
I think your plans are reasonable. Crating can happen for a variety of reasons; mainly for potty training, but I have a foster whose crated because she cannot be trusted home alone. She likes to eat fabric and I cannot risk her getting an obstruction.

As for my Bear, I am more than happy to share how we did it when he was a puppy.

We got him at 9 weeks old and his foster mom had already introduced a crate (but never used it to contain him, it was always left open in his pen).

He didn't like the crate and we didn't have the luxury of time off work to get him adjusted before going back to work. He was crated on average about 4-4.5 hours a day during the week. We had a few accidents at the start, but that was to be expected. We had set up his crate with an x-pen so he had plenty of room and more than enough toys to keep him occupied.

He was fully potty trained by 6 months old, and we started experimenting with leaving him out at night. He did great. We moved to leaving him out during the day in increasing time periods. Until we could trust him loose all day long. He was still only left alone for 5 hours max, save a few special occasions.

He had some orthopedic problems arise at 7 months that lasted to 18 months so he ended up being crated off and on again for his health during those months.

His crate was located across the house, next to the back door for ease during midnight potty breaks. We continued the midnight breaks until he was about 4 months old. It was always, out, potty, and back to bed.

Now a days, he sleeps either in bed with us, or on the floor in the doorway. He has a collection of beds available but prefers the cool laminate.

He very much prefers the company of his people to being alone or independent. My current foster couldn't care less, but my Bear has to be by me. And I'm ok with that. He does not have separation anxiety, but he does enjoy being with me every

second of the day.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
200 Posts
I'm going to be the voice of dissent here. My family's golden retriever growing up did not sleep in any of our bedrooms. She wasn't allowed in the bedrooms because my mom did not feel like cleaning up fur in those rooms. I liked that mentality (nothing against people who sleep with their dogs, it just isn't for me :) ) so we have enacted the same rule in our house with our puppy (he's 4.5 months). His crate is on the other side of the house from our bedroom. He whined for the first night, and ever since, he has been fine. He used to bark in the morning to let us know that he was awake, needed to pee, and wanted some AM cuddles, but lately he has finally started sleeping in. I don't think you will be psychologically damaging your puppy by not having him in your bedroom. Toby is amazingly bonded to us even though he sleeps far away from us.

Regarding your original question of your pup barking in the crate, my only advice would be to try to cause some positive associations with the crate. Put something high value in the crate and close the door with him outside until he is begging you to let him in there. Play games of in you go, out you go. We used to give Toby something really distracting like a Kong with peanut butter so that he didn't even notice it when we left.

I will say though, that Toby still struggles with being in his crate during the day when we are home. It doesn't happen often, but if it does, he barks like crazy. He doesn't actually mind being crated if he can tell that we are leaving... he will give us a grumpy woof of protest and immediately settle. But if he knows we are still in the house, he just barks.

The sleep deprivation will pass soon enough, and then you'll look back at your pictures of your little munchkin and say "how did he grow so big so fast?!" I understand now why so many people have babies really close in age, because I already miss the itty bitty puppy stage... but then I read posts like this one and remember the exhaustion of early puppyhood. Good luck with your little guy :)
 

·
Joe Hill
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Thanks!

Thank you for all of the great advice!

Ok. I've changed my approach to both of these things. I'll explain:

Crating:
- He slept in our room last night and did really well again. I was not accounting for his Golden spirit and about needing to be with us as much as possible for now.
- When we're here during the day, every so often, I put him in his crate using a Kong filled with PB or Cold Rotisserie Chicken (checked closely for bones, you pessimists :p) and while he goes to town on it, I close the crate and leave him in for a short time. I give him a 'quiet' when he starts whining, which he does. After he's been quiet for some time (longer and longer each time) I give him praise and open his crate. Also, I've taken his filled Kong (which he ONLY gets in the crate for positive associate) and place it in the crate and close the door and let him smell it. After a few seconds, he's practically begging to be let in! Love it.
-There will forever be about a 4 hour time frame per day where we cannot be home with him and he will need to be in his crate until he's potty trained and won't tear our new furniture up. So to gear him up for that, when I put him in his crate throughout the day, after a few minutes, Hannah and I leave the room for a few minutes, then come back in and when he's quiet and calm, we let him out and shower him with praise when we let him out. For all of you who are concerned. This little guy has shown a oddly strong bladder. There have been several 4 or more hour periods where he just hasn't eliminated, even with repeated trips outside. That being said, I am working on finding someone who can come bring him out and play with him in our area so that he only has to be crated for about 2 hours at most.

Walking:
- I did not know a puppy this long couldn't make it that long walking and usually we only take him out to walk if he is showing a ton of energy, but it makes sense that walks that long would be too much for him so we're sticking to short, 5-10 minute walks for now and only in areas where there aren't other dogs usually.
- We're mainly sticking to playing right now. Again, I have never worked with puppies before and playing seems to be doing the trick for him so much more than I would've expected!


I would like to add that this little guy is a FAST learner. I didn't plan on adding in things like "Sit" until he was about 4 months old, but Hannah's been telling him "Sit" when she puts his leash on and giving him a treat. After a few days at 9 and 1/2 weeks, he sits almost every single time. He is so smart. Like father, like son ;)
 

Attachments

·
Dog Lover
Joined
·
42,038 Posts
Pup

Your pup is so adorable!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
200 Posts
He is precious!!! What a cute face. It is amazing how fast they learn :) I'd suggest working on 'leave it' nice and early too... it has paid HUGE dividends now that our boy is starting to get into puppy adolescence. Glad to hear you're having better luck with the crate!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,645 Posts
Great pictures of your adorable little one.

"Hannah and I leave the room for a few minutes, then come back in and when he's quiet and calm, we let him out and shower him with praise when we let him out."

As a puppy owner I want my pup to think that the crate is just an awesome place to be. I would then praise and treat (reinforce) the pup inside the crate for sitting or lying down (having a crate party) instead making a huge fuss when the pup comes out of the crate. When I let the pup out of the crate I would be less exciting. Something like 4 or 5 treats while inside the crate and one treat for coming out.

We want the pup to see the crate as a high value place to be. When you put so much praise on the outside you are doing the opposite.
 

·
Joe Hill
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
As a puppy owner I want my pup to think that the crate is just an awesome place to be. I would then praise and treat (reinforce) the pup inside the crate for sitting or lying down (having a crate party) instead making a huge fuss when the pup comes out of the crate. When I let the pup out of the crate I would be less exciting. Something like 4 or 5 treats while inside the crate and one treat for coming out.

We want the pup to see the crate as a high value place to be. When you put so much praise on the outside you are doing the opposite.
That is a REALLY good idea. I don't like the idea of praising him when he comes out because I don't want coming out to feel like a reward so I've felt limited to "Good Boooooooy!" when he does something good. I am really looking forward to trying this because right now, it feels like all corrections and no reward for him which is NOT my style. I think praising the crap out of them for what they do correctly is the only way to get them to consistently reproduce that behavior. I say them, of course, because I mean him.. and my fiance! Bahahaha!
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top