[IowaGold]

I finished up watching Janice Gunn's DVDs tonight and thought of a couple of questions. Since I can't ask her, I thought I'd pick the brains of cross-trainers here.

#1 She says she doesn't teach a left finish for obedience, but saves it for field. Is that something you do, or do you teach/use both finishes? Why?
-Personally I have taught both finishes to Ruby in an obedience context, but typically only use the right finish in competition simply because she can be a bit less than accurate with a left finish. Sometimes we had issues with a "self-finish" when retrieving the dumbell, I don't think that would have been solved by never finishing left, but maybe??

#2 She showed her fetch training. I don't know if she trains/handles her own dog in the field or if her husband or another trainer does that. My question is: do you train the obedience dumbell as part of your field force fetch? I would venture to say that most experienced field folks train the FF between 6 and 12 months, maybe that's a bit young for obedience FF. Would it make more sense to keep the dumbbell FF separate from the field FF? Do you use different commands (fetch vs. take it, etc.)?
-FWIW I do plan to FF Piper (both field and OB). I never fully completed FF with Ruby and have learned the error of my ways. I'm planning to start field FF in another 4-6 weeks (Piper will be 6/7 months old then). I'm leaning towards do OB FF totally separate when she's a bit farther along in her OB work.

#3 For those that train in both obedience and field AND use an e-collar in the field, do you ever utilize the e-collar for obedience? While I'm sure it would be an interesting discussion, I am not really interested in a debate as to whether one should use an e-collar or not as a matter of principle-I just am curious if people with collar conditioned dogs ever used them for other purposes.
-Again FWIW, I'm going to start Piper's collar conditioning as soon as it warms up a little (I'd like it to at least be above zero!). I'm not sure if I will use it for anything obedience or not. I guess it depends on what issues I see arise. I have used it on Ruby during agility, but only to enforce come (which is a class-only, "I'm bored/frustrated waiting for Mom to get it right" issue-she wouldn't dream of running off at a trial).

 

[DUSTYRD2]

Sorry I can't answer most of your questions as we don't do OB yet, but I do know that Janice and her husband both run their dogs in the field, they do not use handlers. Their Field Trial and OB champions are all owner trained and handled. We train on their land and Janice has been in many of our Hunt Tests.
If you google TNT Kennels in Aldergrove, BC you should find Janice's website. She may have an email addy listed and then you could ask her your questions.

Good luck in your training!

 

[FlyingQuizini]

My two cents on a couple things, below:

I finished up watching Janice Gunn's DVDs tonight and thought of a couple of questions. Since I can't ask her, I thought I'd pick the brains of cross-trainers here.

#1 She says she doesn't teach a left finish for obedience, but saves it for field. Is that something you do, or do you teach/use both finishes? Why?

I teach and use both. I like big, flashy finishes where the dog leaps up but still ends up in exact heel position. In some settings, like on the finish after the broad jump in open, a big jump to the right is better than to the left. Jump too far to the left next to the broad jump and you'll land on it! In the field, I exclusively used a left finish.

-Personally I have taught both finishes to Ruby in an obedience context, but typically only use the right finish in competition simply because she can be a bit less than accurate with a left finish.

Sometimes we had issues with a "self-finish" when retrieving the dumbell, I don't think that would have been solved by never finishing left, but maybe??

I doubt it. Sounds like it's just an anticipation problem b/c the retrieve is such a behavior chain. Try to make sure that you don't always ask for the finish when you do retrieve training. 8 out of 10 times, once I take the dumbbell, I release and play w/o asking for a finish. Then I work finishes alone. I rarely put them together in training to try and prevent the anticipation.

#2 She showed her fetch training. I don't know if she trains/handles her own dog in the field or if her husband or another trainer does that. My question is: do you train the obedience dumbell as part of your field force fetch? I would venture to say that most experienced field folks train the FF between 6 and 12 months, maybe that's a bit young for obedience FF. Would it make more sense to keep the dumbbell FF separate from the field FF? Do you use different commands (fetch vs. take it, etc.)?
-FWIW I do plan to FF Piper (both field and OB). I never fully completed FF with Ruby and have learned the error of my ways. I'm planning to start field FF in another 4-6 weeks (Piper will be 6/7 months old then). I'm leaning towards do OB FF totally separate when she's a bit farther along in her OB work.

I don't FF, but I'd think that once it was done in one context, that it should hold up in another w/ just a bit of training to establish the desired crossover?

#3 For those that train in both obedience and field AND use an e-collar in the field, do you ever utilize the e-collar for obedience? While I'm sure it would be an interesting discussion, I am not really interested in a debate as to whether one should use an e-collar or not as a matter of principle-I just am curious if people with collar conditioned dogs ever used them for other purposes.
-Again FWIW, I'm going to start Piper's collar conditioning as soon as it warms up a little (I'd like it to at least be above zero!). I'm not sure if I will use it for anything obedience or not. I guess it depends on what issues I see arise. I have used it on Ruby during agility, but only to enforce come (which is a class-only, "I'm bored/frustrated waiting for Mom to get it right" issue-she wouldn't dream of running off at a trial).

 

[Sunrise]

#1 She says she doesn't teach a left finish for obedience, but saves it for field. Is that something you do, or do you teach/use both finishes? Why?
-Personally I have taught both finishes to Ruby in an obedience context, but typically only use the right finish in competition simply because she can be a bit less than accurate with a left finish. Sometimes we had issues with a "self-finish" when retrieving the dumbell, I don't think that would have been solved by never finishing left, but maybe??
I do not teach the left finish for obedience since it is generally not as precise, but they do learn it for Rally and use it in their field training. The self-finishing is probably just anticipation of completing the behaviour chain.


#2 She showed her fetch training. I don't know if she trains/handles her own dog in the field or if her husband or another trainer does that. My question is: do you train the obedience dumbell as part of your field force fetch? I would venture to say that most experienced field folks train the FF between 6 and 12 months, maybe that's a bit young for obedience FF. Would it make more sense to keep the dumbbell FF separate from the field FF? Do you use different commands (fetch vs. take it, etc.)?
-FWIW I do plan to FF Piper (both field and OB). I never fully completed FF with Ruby and have learned the error of my ways. I'm planning to start field FF in another 4-6 weeks (Piper will be 6/7 months old then). I'm leaning towards do OB FF totally separate when she's a bit farther along in her OB work.
The FF work steps are basically the same for field and obedience except ! once the work has been completed with the dumbbell in field you would then start introducing the birds (partially frozen, then less so then fresh) usually starting with a smallish bird and moving up in size. Evan G also has training tapes available; he is a member of this forum.

One exception to the above (a big one) would be if you choose to use the table method with the dog restrained during the early stages of FF training; this is NOT shown in the Janice Dunn DVD that I saw. If you choose this field method of training, I would personally highly recommend you seek out a pro if you have not previously used it.

FF advocates will generally tell you to use a different word since it can act as a correction during later stages of training and working.

#3 For those that train in both obedience and field AND use an e-collar in the field, do you ever utilize the e-collar for obedience? While I'm sure it would be an interesting discussion, I am not really interested in a debate as to whether one should use an e-collar or not as a matter of principle-I just am curious if people with collar conditioned dogs ever used them for other purposes.

I personally do not use the e-collar, however, the people I know who do use the e-collar almost always use the e-collar at some points during obedience training and I've even seen it used in agility training.

Good luck with your training.
-Again FWIW, I'm going to start Piper's collar conditioning as soon as it warms up a little (I'd like it to at least be above zero!). I'm not sure if I will use it for anything obedience or not. I guess it depends on what issues I see arise. I have used it on Ruby during agility, but only to enforce come (which is a class-only, "I'm bored/frustrated waiting for Mom to get it right" issue-she wouldn't dream of running off at a trial).[/QUOTE]

 

[sterregold]

I don't compete at the highest levels in either, but I do play at both. When I force fetch for field, I do include a dumbell in the early stages of the process. I find that the narrow shaft and large bells give the dog an obvious target! |They also pick up odd objects for me during FF like a hammer, and water bottle. My guys will retrieve just about anything I ask because of this, and they know that fetch means fetch whatever the context.

I do use my e-collar as well, especially when working on off-lead work. Using heel, sit, and here was part of the collar conditioning process, so they already understand it. It is just one more tool in the toolbox as far as I am concerned. You still have to do the motivational work as well, and the corrections have to be timely and meaningful. Nagging accomplishes nothing. Balance is key!!!

 

[AmbikaGR]

Like Shelly I do not train to the upper level of either venue but we do have fun in both. I will noot copy your questions but will number my responses to make it clearer what I am responding to.

1 - I teach both finishes in OB and tell my students to do the same. I then tell them to continually switch them up, this keeps the dog on it's toes because they never know which one you will ask for. A big help in preventing a self-finish. While I am still competing in OB I do not train the delivery in the heel position, I take everything from a front. It will not cost me anything in my levels of field competition while a delivery in the finish position will cost points in OB.

2 - I do include the dumbbell in the FF program and well as other irregular items similar to to Shelly. The thinking being is fetch means fetch no matter what the venue.

3 - I have never used the e-collar for any obedience training reinforcement but I do use it for the field work. Although in the "conditioning" phase there is of course the sit and come exercises.

 

[Loisiana]

Let me start by saying that although I have done quite a bit of field training, it has only been at the JH level with some beginning handling, and I have not entered a hunt test yet.

#1. I train both finishes and use both in the obedience ring. In the field while the dog is returning I always hold my left hand out, giving him a signal to go to heel. I do a lot of training to clarify that if both hands are at my sides, I expect a front. On my call to heel off the moving stand in utility, I put my hand at my waist. I have tested this concept many times and he does understand: hands by sides means front, left hand at waist or sticking out means straight to heel. I do still frequently put the finish in with the rest of the exercise. It clarifies in thier minds that yes, you might do a finish, but you have to wait until I tell you to.

#2 Flip is 6 months and has started Force Fetch. Right now we are just working on taking it from my hand and giving me solid hold without mouthing. So far we have practiced on a plastic dumbbell, a metal article, a bumper, and a piece of PVC pipe.

#3 The thing I don't like about using ecollars in obedience is that you are limited as to when you can use it. In the field, the only time you would have to train without one is at the actual test. But in obedience there are so many places and matches that do not allow them. Using it sometimes in training and not others is what makes a dog collar-wise.

 

[DNL2448]

I pretty much train like Hank described. Though I do use an e-collar for field work. I have only used the e-collar in obedience training when Dooley was really having issues with stay. A couple times training with the collar and the light went on and I haven't had to use it since. (Keep in mind, he was conditioned at the time, so it wasn't a suprise or unfair for him).