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We have a deposit on a puppy from Starr Goldens in Ohio. Has anyone purchased a puppy from them?
 

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Make very sure you see health clearances for both mom and dad! The should be listed on either K9data.com or OFA.org or both. At least, the paperwork should be there for you to see for yourself. Hips, elbows, heart, and eyes. . . It's much easier to make sure all health issues are in order before you fall in love with a gorgeous ball of fluff. I don't know Starr, but any good breeder will be pleased you asked.

Member Doolin knows lots about finding a good English golden. Maybe try him.
 

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I don't anything about Starr Kennels ..meaning I'm simply not knowledgable about breeders ingeneral..you hopefully have met them and had some communication that made you feel comfortable enough to leave a deposit.

We have a 'buying a puppy" sticky on the forum and if I would you, I'd just go through that and cover your bases. If you find you are uncomfortable you might decide to forgo the deposit. But if you feel good aobut the breeder and what you are paying then you won't.

Good luck!!!!
 

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At the top of the forum page is a miscellanous and then a puppy finder checklist comes up. Make sure to see copies of the hips,elbow, heart and eye.
 

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Never heard of them. Just be careful, if their main 'goal' is producing english style goldens, white goldens or 'creme' goldens. Regardless of the color of the dogs, or how many champions are in the background of the parents near or far, you should make sure they have hip, eye, elbow and heart clearances on BOTH parents - if you get the reg'd names of the parents you can go look them up on the OFA website database yourself (having seen several breeders who claim to do clearances on their dogs only to find out they didn't really mean it).

Lana
 

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Starr goldens website isn't very helpful to me when looking at where their dogs come from, what the lines are. There is a group in U.S./Canada who are very dedicated to this style of golden. They are very against using anything but "English Type" to describe their dogs. Color has nothing to do with "English Type", so those claiming that this is a distinguishing feature of this style of golden are very misinformed(and possibly not so great breeders). If you go to www.englishgoldens.net you will find the list of dedicated breeders here in the U.S. and Canada. These are the breeders who compete in all of the different venues with their goldens.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thank you for the responses. I was hoping someone may have bought from them. I have had several conversations with the owner, and we are driving out to pick up the puppy.
 

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Thank you for the responses. I was hoping someone may have bought from them. I have had several conversations with the owner, and we are driving out to pick up the puppy.
Good luck with your new puppy! And congratulations!!!

Please don't be alarmed by some here who judge a breeder simply based on what they see in a website. You've done it right asking for those who have experience with the breeder's doggies. I've railed on this topic before in another thread - people throwing off on a breeder w/out specific knowlege of their dogs or never having visited their facilities.

Those health clearances mentioned above by the so called "intelligencia" here are a start, but they're not everything. Do NOT rely on them, alone.

To prove my point, ask those who commented with "warnings" about your breeder to share their kennel names. Then search OFAA.org on that kennel name.

What you'll find is even those kennels who boast health clearances wind up producing some puppies with hip problems. So if the parents and grandparents had great hips, then why the problems with the puppies? Answer: there's no proof that hip problems are caused only by genetics.

It seems you've done this... and I recommend it too. Talk to the breeder. Examine dam and sire (and grandparents if available). Make sure all of the doggies you meet are well behaved and in good physical condition. Ask questions. Lots of them. Make sure their operation is transparent (everything is out in the open for you to see. Some breeders show only their good dogs while the "bad" ones are hidden out of sight). Make sure you examine the breeder's health guarantee and are happy with the terms.

If during your visits any red flags pop up, leave w/out placing a deposit.

Again, congrats on the new puppy! And welcome. I, for one, can't wait to see pictures of your new baby.
 

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Did it snow in bitterville?
 

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"...What you'll find is even those kennels who boast health clearances wind up producing some puppies with hip problems. So if the parents and grandparents had great hips, then why the problems with the puppies? Answer: there's no proof that hip problems are caused only by genetics..."

But...with health clearences you have a MUCH, MUCH better chance of having a healthy puppy.

Just wondering, Sqwumpkin, if you have ever had a dysplastic dog? If not, you can not even come close to knowing just how difficult/heartbreaking it is to manage their pain. If you have, I'm shocked that you would even come close to saying that health testing is not one of, if not the most, important thing when considering breeders. I will NEVER purchase another dog from any breeder that did not care enough to perform health testing on the parents of the litters they produce. No, it's not a 100% guarantee of a perfect puppy, but at least the deck is overwhelmingly stacked in your favor.

JMO
 

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When I go to breeders page I would like to have few information :
1. dogs with full names that they have in pedigree (not pet names) - that tells you where dog comes from.
2. pedigree - so I can see who are dogs parents and orgin ( this is ridduculos- saying that dogs father is 3 times world champion and not saying WHO is the father?!)
and
3. photo in stack and photo of head so I can see how the dog actually looks like.

How old are those dogs? How many litters did they have? From what I can tell maybe they even don't have pedigree.
"european goldens" are not white, we have lighter dogs but that is not main description of a dog...
 

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When I go to breeders page I would like to have few information :
1. dogs with full names that they have in pedigree (not pet names) - that tells you where dog comes from.
2. pedigree - so I can see who are dogs parents and orgin ( this is ridduculos- saying that dogs father is 3 times world champion and not saying WHO is the father?!)
and
3. photo in stack and photo of head so I can see how the dog actually looks like.

How old are those dogs? How many litters did they have? From what I can tell maybe they even don't have pedigree.
"european goldens" are not white, we have lighter dogs but that is not main description of a dog...
I agree with everything mentioned by Leo, I think the dogs they have are very beautiful and probably very well bred, its a shame they don't publish their dog's pedigrees on their website. Maybe its a US thing?

I also think its very helpful for prospective owners of a puppy bred at a certain kennel, to have the assurance that all breeding stock has all necessary health clearances. They only state this for their stud dog Storm.

At least you have a 'heads up' on these matters before you visit them. It does not of course mean that the dogs they have aren't completley healthy and in possession of all necessary health certification, but if they had it, why not publish on their website? I don't really understand.

Try to find out how many litters each bitch is expected to have... n.b. it is not good to breed a bitch on successive seasons, so if the same bitch is bred from time and time again this is definitely NOT good!

Good luck on choosing your new puppy, I really look forward to you showing him/her off on the Forum.
Tanya
 

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Those health clearances mentioned above by the so called "intelligencia" here are a start, but they're not everything. Do NOT rely on them, alone.

To prove my point, ask those who commented with "warnings" about your breeder to share their kennel names. Then search OFAA.org on that kennel name.

What you'll find is even those kennels who boast health clearances wind up producing some puppies with hip problems. So if the parents and grandparents had great hips, then why the problems with the puppies? Answer: there's no proof that hip problems are caused only by genetics.
If you would like other kennel names to 'compare' to, both my girls are from GoldCker. Bender's mom had full clearances, as did dad, grandparents and great grandparents. Storee's parents, same thing (Storee's mom goes back to Bender's mom). Storee's brother just got an OFA excellent on his hips and elbows cleared. The father is a PRA carrier, this was found out after the pups were born, and her litter will be tested as will any of the dogs the breeder uses. Not bragging, but it's all out in the open information that the breeder, stud owner and all the puppy owners are fully informed on. Storee will be tested before she's ever bred, and the stud used will be tested as well.

Now hips are just ONE of the health issues in the breed today. Elbows, eyes, heart, all should be tested and cleared on BOTH parents. And a reputable breeder will not 'boast' about clearances, they have them.

Now to compare a kennel who produces similar dogs, look at Kyon Goldens http://www.kyonkennels.com/Retrievers/Goldens.htm

Very 'english' type Goldens, with clearances, registered names posted on their dogs (so you can go look them up on K9data or OFA), titles on the parents as well as the dogs they're using for breeding. If you do a search on www.offa.org with the kennel name, it comes up with 168 results.

If the website for the breeder asked about is - http://starrgoldens.com
They have nice white dogs, yes, and it does say hips and elbows done on everything, however it's hard to look them up based on call names alone - and there are dogs with the 'Starr' prefix on ofa, however it's hard to tell which dog is which without registered names. So yes, they could have hips and elbows done but a buyer would have to ask for proof from the breeder or more information to find out for sure. Heart IS a problem in the breed, there is no mention of any of their dogs having clearances for heart problems though. Eyes too are an issue in the breed, again nothing mentioned. So I have to question, are they doing clearances for them and not saying anything? Or? It also says things like 'Multi Champion parents' and 'lines are very rare' about some of their dogs - but there's no pedigree or other information on the parents or lines of the dogs they're using.

To be honest, the problem I have is that there are breeders out there who do mislead the public as to what they're producing, don't show their dogs, register the pups or do health clearances, and charge the same or MORE than a reputable breeder who does all of those things. This kennel may or may not be like that, I don't know. The OP asked if anyone had gotten a dog from there and based on the website above, got that sort of response. Yes, a dog with parents who have good hips can get hip problems, but that doesn't mean the parents should not be tested. What about heart, eyes, cancer, allergies....?

Lana
 

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But...with health clearences you have a MUCH, MUCH better chance of having a healthy puppy.
JMO
Until you show me a scietific study proving your point, you're parroting an idiology, not reality. Just because one FEELS clearances for hips give a MUCH MUCH better chance of a healthy puppy doesn't mean it's true.

Remember Jerry McGuire -- "show me the money"? I say to you, SHOW ME THE STUDY proving your feewings.

Secondly, OFA evaluations are based upon xrays. An xray is a two dimensional image of a 3 dimensional object. Not to mention, there are all sorts of variables at play when taking the xray, like the vets ability to position the creature, was gas used to sedate the creature, and what strength of radiation was used? xrays themselves are not an exact science. Then there's the subjectivity of those who rate the xrays at OFA.

Also with respect to poor OFA evaluations -- for those who don't know -- there's a check box on the application for evaluation a breeder can select to NOT have an evaluation entered into the OFA database if the rating isn't a passing one. So now we don't know the true extent of hip problems because they're not all logged in the database.

Just out of curiosity, Kwhit, how many litters have you produced? Do you speak from experience, or are you parroting someone else's talking points that you have never really investigated?
 

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One thing is that a breeder who cares enough to do the upmost in health clearances cares enough to get your back if something does go wrong. We have always searched for pups whose parents have all health clearances and have owned 7 goldens: 6 hips good and elbows normal, but one elbow dysplasia. The breeder of the dysplastic pup refunded the entire purchase price of the puppy with a very sincere note thanking us for loving her anyway and consulted with the orthopedic specialist! That really helped us in paying for the medical care she needed. There has to be a depth of trust between breeder and buyer. For me to feel that trust, I need to see those health clearances.
 

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If you go to the OFA website, there is a page where they list the different breeds and the number of dogs tested, number of displastic dogs and number of OFA excellent dogs, both in the past (1980, then 1990-1992, 2000-2002 and 2003-2004). It also lists the changes in the trends. 215.8% increase in the number of excellent ratings, and a -27.3% decrease in displastic dogs. Not sure if that's credible to you or not, but that's a start.

On the Golden Retriever Club of America website there is more information on health studies relating to elbows, eyes and heart. All current issues within the breed, all things that should be tested for in breeding dogs.

I have to ask, Sqwumpkin, why are you so 'anti' health testing? Where is your proof that it isn't effective or helpful?

Lana
 

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Also with respect to poor OFA evaluations -- for those who don't know -- there's a check box on the application for evaluation a breeder can select to NOT have an evaluation entered into the OFA database if the rating isn't a passing one. So now we don't know the true extent of hip problems because they're not all logged in the database.
Your information is totally wrong.
Whenyou submit your x-rays for evaluation you have this option
Authorization to Release Abnormal Results
I hereby authorize the OFA to release the results of its radiographic evaluation of the animal described on this application to the

public if the results are abnormal_______________ (initials of registered owner).

There is no box to check, and the Authorization is to release the results to the public if the results are NOT NORMAL. So if the release is NOT initialed the results are not released to the public for this particular dog. However the results are still compiled in the overall numbers for each breed so you do have the information to determine whether or not the screening process is succeeding. So we DO know the extent in the problem because they are all logged into the data base.

I also am curious why you feel that the health screening of dogs is not important?
Do you think we would get the same amount of problems if we were to stop doing them?
I agree there are no guarantees when it comes to breeding but does that mean that breeders should not even try to better the odds that future generations can limit these issues even more than they are today?
Should we just breed any two dogs and hope for the best?
You made the comment that one should visit the breeder and see the parents to see that they are healthy. Do you think that is sufficent health screening?


 

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Normally, I wouldn't post a reply to someone who is so obviously trolling but in this case, the information that Sqwumpkin is spouting off about could cause someone a severe case of heartache in the future and I can't let that pass.

OFA, PennHip, GDC, OVC, FCI (European), BVA (England & Australia), & SV (Germany) grading systems and CERF examinations are simply tools that can help a breeder to make a more informed decision about breeding dogs. With the possible exception of the CERF exam, none of these systems have the ability to tell us whether or not a dog has the gene(s) for a specific disorder.

What they can tell us is whether or not the dog is phenotypically (physically) affected by a disorder and they can give us an idea of the family history of the dog (affected parents, siblings, and other family). There have been SEVERAL studies that have said that, aside from genetic testing, these grading schemes are the BEST way to predict the hip phenotype in dogs. (http://offa.org/refhd.html & http://offa.org/hipguide.html & http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/chs_hip.pdf)

One study recently found that the FCI & OFA hip grading scheme are comparible in the classification of the hip joints for dysplasia by breed - http://tinyurl.com/b7fewd

It is not always possible to tell whether or not a dog has dysplasia, a heart murmur, SAS, PRA simply by looking at him/her. Having a vet say that the dogs "look healthy enough to breed" isn't feasible becauses some disorders cannot be correctly diagnosed without having a Veterinary Specialist in that field look at the dog. It is not logicial to say that just because a breeder has never heard of any problems in their lines, that those problems don't exist in those lines.

Until we have genetic testing for these disorders, these tools are all that we have to insure that we produce the best possible puppies. They may not be perfect but they are most certainly better than nothing.
 
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