English Cream vs. American Golden?

18852 Views 32 Replies 14 Participants Last post by tippykayak, Sep 11, 2009

goldhaven

Discussion Starter · Sep 10, 2009

I know a woman who breeds English cream golden retrievers. She charges quite a bit for them. She gets her dogs from Europe. They have actually been flown here from other countries. This is why she calls them the English Cream. She claims that they are much better than the American Golden on every level. She also claims that some breeders market their lighter goldens as English Creams but they aren't unless the parents came from Europe. My question is that if her dogs have been flown in from Europe, does that make them true English Cream? If so, how do you go about checking out the lineage of her dogs. The genetic testing is done differently in Europe. It is very hard to read her k-9 data records and you can forget about OFA. I think that all of her dogs are AKC registered so she is able to sell AKC registered puppies. I have read some of the posts regarding English Creams and I have read the article in GRCA about rare white goldens. Everything that I have read suggests that a golden, is a golden, is a golden but there are a lot of websites out there that are making the claim that an English Cream golden is somehow better than an American Golden. I can purchase a show dog from a top kennel for the price that she charges for her pet puppies. Does anyone out there believe that the English cream is a higher quality dog and worth paying the extra price for? Also, I have heard that the English cream goldens don't do as well in the show ring because of their color. I guess that I have 4 questions
1. Is there such a thing as a true English Cream?
2. If so, do they have to be imported from Europe?
3. How do you go about checking the lineage of these dogs?
4. Are they somehow better than the American lines?

I have added the links to her website and the website of the article in GRCA
http://www.grca.org/allabout/a_doodle-white.html
http://www.luckyladyfarms.com/

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1 - 20 of 33 Posts

mist

· #2 · Sep 10, 2009

1. Is there such a thing as a true English Cream? no it's just a marketing ploy to charge more
2. If so, do they have to be imported from Europe? how are they English when they usually come from at least 2nd generation English dogs, the Europeans have worked out it's a good way to make a quick buck
3. How do you go about checking the lineage of these dogs? http://www.standfastdata.co.uk/ for UK dogs not sure about European
4. Are they somehow better than the American lines? Not at all goldens bread properly should all have a loyal loving nature

just walk away from anyone advertising their dogs as rare English Creams

mist

· #3 · Sep 10, 2009

can i also point out that the rights to the picture on the bottom of this page belong solely to Lynn Kipps http://www.luckyladyfarms.com/thatsanenglishgolden.htm

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goldhaven

Discussion Starter · #4 · Sep 10, 2009

Thanks so much for the info. I found that site very informative. I didn't realize that there was a site in the UK pretty much the same as the OFA website here. I still don't understand the way the hips are tested over there and what the scores mean. Any info on that will be appreciated.

mist

· #5 · Sep 10, 2009

[url]http://www.bva.co.uk/public/chs/bms2006.pdf[/URL]

the above link is for the BVA British vetenery association.

these are the results for 2008
The british mean score for golden retrievers is 18, 31.233 golden retrievers have been tested with a possible score of 0-106, each hip is rated from 0-53 each movement of the joint is rated 0-6

hip joint score range right left
Norberg angle 0-6 0 0
Subluxation 0-6 1 1
Cranial acetabular edge 0-6 2 2
Dorsal acetabular edge 0-6 0 0
Cranial effective acetabular rim 0-6 0 0
acetabular fossa 0-6 0 0
Caudal acetabular edge 0-5 0 0
Femoral head/neck exostosis 0-6 0 0
Femoral head recontouring 0-6 0 0

total max poss per column is 53, gracie's score was 3 3 hip score =6

any dog with a total score of 18 or above should not be bred from

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mist

· #6 · Sep 10, 2009

Eileen verifies all information before it is added to the site so less chance of people giving inaccurate information

AmbikaGR

· #7 · Sep 10, 2009

Welcome to GRF!! :wavey:

goldhaven said:
1. Is there such a thing as a true English Cream?

NO!!!

goldhaven said:
2. If so, do they have to be imported from Europe?

Seeing as there is no such thing, this question is moot.

goldhaven said:
3. How do you go about checking the lineage of these dogs?

As there are plenty on unscrupulous breeders using this marketing ploy, you should be able to check pedigrees and clearances by requesting to visually see them.

goldhaven said:
4. Are they somehow better than the American lines?

Absolutely not!

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mist

· #8 · Sep 10, 2009

[/QUOTE]

4. Are they somehow better than the American lines?

Absolutely not![/QUOTE]

as I'm owned by four, i feel I should be offended, there again I live with them and know what total pains in the bottom they can be

rik6230

· #9 · Sep 10, 2009

I never heard about "English Cream". I read this article. I don't know if the information is correct but the ( photo's are beautiful.

http://www.starcrowned.com/egnatest/

AmbikaGR

· #10 · Sep 10, 2009

[/QUOTE]

as I'm owned by four, i feel I should be offended, there again I live with them and know what total pains in the bottom they can be

[/QUOTE]

So no offense was meant. My reference to what the OP was referring to "English Cream". Please accept my apology if I offended you.
As for Goldens from English lines there are many examples of outstanding dogs, on both side of the pond. And I am sure your four would fit into this group.

mist

· #11 · Sep 10, 2009

as I'm owned by four, i feel I should be offended, there again I live with them and know what total pains in the bottom they can be

[/QUOTE]

So no offense was meant. My reference to what the OP was referring to "English Cream". Please accept my apology if I offended you.
As for Goldens from English lines there are many examples of outstanding dogs, on both side of the pond. And I am sure your four would fit into this group.[/QUOTE]

lol, no offence taken, i was joking. I'm the first to admit I really don't get the whole English cream debate, especially considering more and more breeders here are going back to the darker dogs. As far as I know no breeder in the the UK would ask more money for a darker (rare haha) golden

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Mssjnnfer

· #12 · Sep 10, 2009

I was looking at that website... the breeder... and I mean... thinking their goldens are better than other goldens? What? Seriously?

http://www.luckyladyfarms.com/ourdogs.htm

The "our dogs" section... I'm probably going to get railed for this, but they don't look THAT special. LOL. They look like normal goldens. I bet they pee and poop like normal goldens too. I bet if they eat too much grass they leave little green presents around the house, like normal goldens. Their deposit alone is $500... and then it said the payments are broken down into 4 payments... Sounds like a ploy to get more money.

Sorry... stuff like that bothers me. They're adorable dogs, but don't try to make more money by saying they're "rare"...

Also. On her FAQs... one of her "questions" was "Did you vote for Obama?"

What does that have to do with puppies? LOL.

Oh well. I'm gonna go give my sub-par goldens some big hugs and kisses now.

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Mssjnnfer

· #13 · Sep 10, 2009

rik said:
I never heard about "English Cream". I read this article. I don't know if the information is correct but the ( photo's are beautiful.

http://www.starcrowned.com/egnatest/

Also, that picture with the goldens and their colors... OMG. I LOVE IT!!

momtoMax

· #14 · Sep 11, 2009

Well, obviously American is better than English any day of the week!!

SheetsSM

· #15 · Sep 11, 2009

I will say when I was stationed in Germany, we had influx of puppy mill dogs that were being transported in from Poland to be sold...so Europe has the same problem the US does with unscrupulous breeders who I am just sure are willing to sell to some sucker in the US.

sabby

· #16 · Sep 11, 2009

Well, obviously American is better than English any day of the week!!

But of course they are

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momtoMax

· #17 · Sep 11, 2009

sabby said:
But of course they are

With Canadians a solid second!

paula bedard

· #18 · Sep 11, 2009

Loved the photo too! I am partial to the red end of the spectrum though...probably because my Heart Dog was a red guy. They always appear to have a glow about them. Nothing's more spectacular than a red Golden standing in the sunlight...it's breathtaking!

momtoMax

· #19 · Sep 11, 2009

Mssjnnfer said:
I was looking at that website... the breeder... and I mean... thinking their goldens are better than other goldens? What? Seriously?

http://www.luckyladyfarms.com/ourdogs.htm

The "our dogs" section... I'm probably going to get railed for this, but they don't look THAT special. LOL. They look like normal goldens. I bet they pee and poop like normal goldens too. I bet if they eat too much grass they leave little green presents around the house, like normal goldens. Their deposit alone is $500... and then it said the payments are broken down into 4 payments... Sounds like a ploy to get more money.

Sorry... stuff like that bothers me. They're adorable dogs, but don't try to make more money by saying they're "rare"...

Also. On her FAQs... one of her "questions" was "Did you vote for Obama?"

What does that have to do with puppies? LOL.

Oh well. I'm gonna go give my sub-par goldens some big hugs and kisses now.

Laughs at the Obama question and answer. Wonder if she's a Sarah Palin relative? You know what I wonder. You know how Lewinsky got to mean something r rated because of her association? I do just wonder why we haven't applied Palin to another meaning as well. Like, Man, that was Palin! Or Don't you have 2 Palins to rub together? Completely off topic, I know, but I do wonder.

sabby

· #20 · Sep 11, 2009

With Canadians a solid second

But of course we are

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