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So recently my family and I have been starting to look for a new dog. We love the Golden Retriever breed but unfortunately we lost our Golden named Bogey from what we think was cancer. Because he was barely 8 when he passed we were shocked and devastated, only later finding out that Golden Retrievers have around a 60 percent chance of getting Cancer. After a lot of debate we were almost not going to get another Golden and instead get a mixed breed that would have better health but then we found out about the English Cream Golden.

I'm very confused to the controversy surrounding the English cream Golden's, I totally understand that they ARE the same breed as any other Golden retriever but with differences like head shape, snout shape, chest shape, and that fact that their chance of getting cancer is basically cut in half.

From what Iv'e seen there has been some animosity directed towards owners who want or have English Cream Golden's because it's supposedly a new fad or tend going around. However this is not why my family wants one, we want an English Cream Golden because we loved our dog so much and seeing him pass so early was one of the hardest things and we would want a dog with a significantly decreased chance for cancer. We also didn't want it to feel like we were just replacing our old golden for a new one but we really to love the Golden breed so having an English Cream Golden would give us the same look but not the same color making us feel like the new puppy was not just meant to fill in for our old dog.

Now about the breeders, Iv'e heard a lot of bad things on the internet about the breeders of the English Cream Golden's but I'm not sure I understand it entirely. We are currently looking at a small time breeder that we found in the newspaper who got her English Cream Golden and her Son's English Cream Golden together. Iv'e read a lot of things about English Cream Golden Breeders not insuring or checking their pups hips, ears and etc. but when we got our first Golden we got him from a very very good breeder who had all of his lines checked and he ended up with severe skin, ear and some hip problems- and then died of cancer. Isn't it all in the luck of the draw when it comes to picking a puppy? Can anyone really guarantee 100% healthy dog?

That's probably why I'm so confused when it comes to this English cream hate (hates probably too strong of a word sorry) so what if the breeder can't tell me that his or her puppy has a 100% great linage for health, because we had that guarantee and still ended up with a dog with a lot of problems. I feel like a lot of people act like these English Cream Golden's will sprout horns as soon as you get them or they say they are a scam like someone spray painted them white or something?

So on that note, someone please help me make sense of this? What should my family do- I agree with some about not wanting to go through the internet route and we defiantly don't want our puppy shipped over to us, but really what is the worst thing that can happen with going to a local breeder?
 

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To answer the last question you posed, you could end up buying a puppy with a serious health problem and be faced with paying thousands in vet bills or losing your puppy unexpectedly due to a heart condition. It's incredibly important to find a breeder who's doing everything possible to breed healthier dogs. You can probably find a breeder like that locally but they won't be posting ads looking for buyers. They have plenty of people who want their puppies and don't need to sell them online or in newspapers.

Regarding the rest of your post, there's nothing really wrong with liking a certain color or look of a golden. The big problem that people have with the "english cream" fad is that it encourages people just breeding for color without knowledge or consideration of health, structure or temperament. They are also not any less likely to develop cancer than an "American style" golden. Don't believe everything on the Internet. There really hasn't been a reliable study to back up statements about english style goldens having less cancer, so it's inappropriate for anyone to suggest that
 

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Not an expert or anything close

But I'm interested in the English cream subject also so I've been reading a lot.

Seems to me that the big fuss is that because there's a lot of golden owners that even though they had puppies from really good sources and still had problems, misinformation is now creating a new trend not necessarily based on accurate medical sources and some dodgy breeders are taking advantage of the "traumas" and misinformation of future owners and not having the proper cares and testings when breeding.
With this say I haven't found any study saying that English Cream have less recurrence of the dreadful problems we all know.

There's is a big difference it seems from what is accepted by the AKC as standard for the breed and their UK counter part I believe. But in the end I think that a lot of us owners are not so concerned with getting the AKC title for conformance, or do show etc.
All we want is just a healthy Golden because we love them in general, and maybe one that doesn't have the same exact gold colour as the previous puppy and that is quite valid.
Choosing the right breeder just makes the odds higher to get a healthy puppy but is not 100% guarantee, no one can promise you that.

Other more knowledgeable people can provide better info or advise, mine is just follow your heart, go fall in love with a puppy from a good breeder
 

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I am sorry for the loss of your Bogey. When it comes to cancer in Golden Retrievers, there are no guarantees. I would be skeptical of any breeder that states his line of Goldens has a lesser chance of getting cancer. If you want a lighter color Golden, please look for a quality breeder. But stay away from any breeder that claims his/her dogs will be healthier than anyone else's. Also, all Golden Retrievers are Golden Retrievers, whether they are red, light red, blonde or cream. "Cream" is not a separate breed.
 

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Well, first there is no fact that English lineage dogs have less cancer. That is one on the biggest issues a lot of people including myself have with the multitude of bad breeders who are in to this niche market to rake in the big bucks. Most of the time worded in a way to pray on the fears of families just like yours who have lost any dog to Cancer.

I like European dogs, in fact my first breeding which sadly did not take was to a very nice, very pale gold boy from Scotland who was in North America to earn his Candian Championship before returning home to Scotland. I will likely attempt to import seamen or dogs form overseas in the future but I am working hard to establish relationships with well respected breeders that normally do not deal with Americans. We as a country have earned a reputation that means most of the good breeders will not deal with us. The breeders who do tend to be commercial kennels that pump out white puppies for export trade. In researching pedigrees overseas I have found they do have Cancer but cultural differences make it less appropriate to discuss publicly. I have found that after building relationships and trust that I can find out which dogs had cancer, what type and when they died. Here in the U.S. we seem to be more open about this posting publicly online, though still not as much as I would like to see.

I have no patients or respect for breeders who make these reduced Cancer or Cancer free claims. They are usually pointing to two tiny voluntary surveys usually erroneously referred to as studies that were done years apart and never intended to be compared. In fact many breeders that point to the UK survey do not have dogs from that country but from Eastern Eurpoean or Baltic State countries. Since there is some proof that environmental factors can play a role in some cancers the location of dogs may impact cancer rates. It is likely that many of these breeders do not know that health histories behind their dogs and in that case it is easy to say their is no cancer in the lines.

If you choose to go with an extreme color selection as a top priority (cream or red, either are extremes) be very cautious. Breeders who advertise color tend to be missing the boat in many areas such a temperment, good structure, health testing etc. I think you should get what ever you want and you certainly can but it will likely take a lot of work and time.

As far as someone being able to 100% guarantee a healthy puppy, dogs are living,nbreathing beings and genetics is a slippery thing. You certainly can stack the odds in your favor. In our breed best practice set forth by our breed club and followed by responsible breeders in the U.S. is testing elbows and hips at 2 years or more of age, heart by a cardiologist at 1 year or more of age, and eye annually by a AVCO Diplomate ophthalmologist. Also, genetic tests as appropriate which in Europen lines means Ichthyosis testing should be strongly considered.

Finding a puppy from just two randomly bred dogs regardless of color will not stack the odds as much as a litter from a breeder who is health testing, deeply researching pedigrees and proving thier dogs in competition. But regardless breeder or lines selected if it is a Goldens, Cancer is alway a possibility.
 

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There's is a big difference it seems from what is accepted by the AKC as standard for the breed and their UK counter part I believe.
It is interesting to look at the standards. I personally don't think there is a big difference between them. Sure there are some differences and extremely pale color is penalized in the U.S. But, it is not a disqualification nor has it stopped very well structured, correct, extremely pale dogs from competing and winning in the U.S. rings.

In case you are curious here that are
https://www.grca.org/about-the-breed/akc-breed-standard/
The Kennel Club
 

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As a UK breeder who happens to own both cream and gold dogs I would like to give you some advice. UK bred goldens do suffer from cancer but more usually mast cell tumours although we get other types as well. I lost a working bred bitch with lymphoma at 4 and I have lost others at 10 but I have had dogs over 14 as well.
If you decide to buy from European lines (as there are very few UK lines in the US) you still need to make sure they have current eye certificates (within the last year) and also hip and elbow scores These may have been done under FCI/BVA/KC rules in which case we can do them at 1 year rather than 2 years which is normal for the US. The UK/European goldens do look different form the US goldens but they are all the same breed and there is no such breed as an 'English cream' a term UK breeders deplore as in any case they were a Scottish breed! Hearts are not usually tested in the UK but obviously it would be better to buy from heart tested parents. Annef
 

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First, I'm sorry for your loss. I fully understand how you feel, having lost my own much-loved golden retriever suddenly and unexpectedly to cancer earlier this year, at age 8. It's a devastating thing to happen.

Second, to answer your question: Can anyone really guarantee a 100% healthy dog? The answer is no. The best breeder in the world can't do that, and someone who breeds her golden to her son's golden can't do it either. If the breeder of your last golden gave you a 100% guarantee, he or she wasn't being honest with you - as you've no doubt realized by now.

Next: While there's nothing wrong with having a colour preference when choosing a dog, it does make you more vulnerable to marketing ploys such as the "English Cream" thing. "English Creams" are golden retrievers with light-coloured coats. One of the reasons why many knowledgeable people are less than enthusiastic about them is that the breeders of these dogs often charge exorbitant amounts for their pups, on the basis that they're different from "regular" goldens and therefore less prone to cancer - which simply isn't true. There's zero evidence to support such a claim. It's important to bear that in mind. Breeders who suggest otherwise are preying on your vulnerability.

However, as you've also realized with your previous dog, cancer isn't the only health problem to which goldens are prone - and it's here that your choice of breeder can make a difference. In the case of the breeder you're considering - the woman who has bred her dog to her son's dog - you might want to ask her if she's researched the dogs' lines, and if she's had the dogs examined and x-rayed to make sure their hips, elbows, heart and eyes are healthy. You might also want to ask her if she knows where these dogs, and their parents, are from (bred in the US, imported from Europe, etc.), and if their breeders know about and are ok with the fact that they are being bred. If the answer to any of these questions is "no", you might want to consider what, exactly, you would be paying for if you purchase one of the pups.

As previous posters have said, it's a question of stacking the odds in your favour. If the parents have hip, eye or elbow problems, for example, the pups are far more likely to develop the same types of problems. If the breeder hasn't tested the parents and doesn't know any of this stuff, you and your new pup are the ones who are likely to pay the price for his or her ignorance.

It's true that pups from highly reputable breeders can also develop these types of problems - dogs are living creatures, not products manufactured in a factory. But the odds are much, much greater that they won't, because they come from lines that are known to be healthy in this respect.

For the time being, cancer seems to be the great equalizer. As others have said, no breeder can guarantee that their pups won't develop cancer. My dog died in March of this year, and I still don't have another one. She came from a wonderfully knowledgeable breeder with very long-lived lines, and she died anyway. Her mother lived to age 13, her father is still strong and active at age 12, and her siblings are well and healthy. We just drew the short straw. It's taken me a long time to digest what happened, and even longer to decide that I'm prepared to take the same risk again. I've spent much of my free time this summer raising money for canine cancer research ($4,000 and counting), in the hope that some answers will eventually be found.

As for your last question - what your family should do next - all I can suggest is that you do your homework and buy from a breeder who's done everything possible to maximize the chances that your next dog will be healthy. And steer clear of breeders who claim that the type of dogs they breed are less likely to develop cancer because there's no way they can possibly know that.

Best of luck with your search, and I wish you much happiness with your new pup!
 

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I felt I should chime in on this since I own one of the "English Cream Goldens", as some people refer to them. When asked by people if Bailey is and English Cream we generally tell them that he is a light colored golden retriever (or depending on our mood sometimes tell them he is a pigment challenged golden retriever). We did not select Bailey for any particular virtue touted by the breeder as we learned long ago with other breeds of dogs that saying is one thing. Actually providing proof of the statement is quite another. We had previously had a golden retriever, Goldie, who really was the light of my life. I have had many, many dogs and Goldie was special. She died of cancer at the age of 14. She was healthy up until her last year. My husband got me Bailey for my birthday. He wanted to get a dog who did not look like Goldie. It would have been too difficult for us to have a dog which looked like Goldie. We would have compared the puppy to her and, I suspect, the puppy would always have come up short. Consequently we ended up with a light colored golden. As far as the differences? Bailey is subject to the same health concerns for any golden out there. As far as temperament I find him to be pretty similar to other goldens. He is no smarter (although IMHO goldens are a very intelligent breed) and no easier to train (I have found goldens to be some of the easiest breeds to train of the many breeds I have had). The only thing I have noticed that is any different is that Bailey has a more jowly appearance than Goldie had. Also that his eyes are much darker and appear black. In addition to this I haven't noticed any hatred or hostility directed at myself or my dog on this board due to the fact he is a light colored golden. I suspect the perceived hostility is for breeders who advertise dogs and make false claims regarding their health and genetics. This would be true in the case of any breeder regardless of color of the dog. So, in short, I don't think you will can get a guarantee that any dog will remain cancer free throughout its life and if you think an English Cream Golden is going to provide you with the peace of mind that the dog will not get cancer you are wrong. The dogs called "English Creams" are lovely animals and I love my Bailey to the moon and back but I know his health risks are the same as for any other Golden Retriever. I would suggest you research the breeder you are considering as you would research any other breeder. Realize that health and temperament promises are nothing without proof and move forward or not accordingly.
 

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So recently my family and I have been starting to look for a new dog. We love the Golden Retriever breed but unfortunately we lost our Golden named Bogey from what we think was cancer. Because he was barely 8 when he passed we were shocked and devastated, only later finding out that Golden Retrievers have around a 60 percent chance of getting Cancer. After a lot of debate we were almost not going to get another Golden and instead get a mixed breed that would have better health but then we found out about the English Cream Golden.

I'm very confused to the controversy surrounding the English cream Golden's, I totally understand that they ARE the same breed as any other Golden retriever but with differences like head shape, snout shape, chest shape, and that fact that their chance of getting cancer is basically cut in half.

From what Iv'e seen there has been some animosity directed towards owners who want or have English Cream Golden's because it's supposedly a new fad or tend going around. However this is not why my family wants one, we want an English Cream Golden because we loved our dog so much and seeing him pass so early was one of the hardest things and we would want a dog with a significantly decreased chance for cancer. We also didn't want it to feel like we were just replacing our old golden for a new one but we really to love the Golden breed so having an English Cream Golden would give us the same look but not the same color making us feel like the new puppy was not just meant to fill in for our old dog.

Now about the breeders, Iv'e heard a lot of bad things on the internet about the breeders of the English Cream Golden's but I'm not sure I understand it entirely. We are currently looking at a small time breeder that we found in the newspaper who got her English Cream Golden and her Son's English Cream Golden together. Iv'e read a lot of things about English Cream Golden Breeders not insuring or checking their pups hips, ears and etc. but when we got our first Golden we got him from a very very good breeder who had all of his lines checked and he ended up with severe skin, ear and some hip problems- and then died of cancer. Isn't it all in the luck of the draw when it comes to picking a puppy? Can anyone really guarantee 100% healthy dog?

That's probably why I'm so confused when it comes to this English cream hate (hates probably too strong of a word sorry) so what if the breeder can't tell me that his or her puppy has a 100% great linage for health, because we had that guarantee and still ended up with a dog with a lot of problems. I feel like a lot of people act like these English Cream Golden's will sprout horns as soon as you get them or they say they are a scam like someone spray painted them white or something?

So on that note, someone please help me make sense of this? What should my family do- I agree with some about not wanting to go through the internet route and we defiantly don't want our puppy shipped over to us, but really what is the worst thing that can happen with going to a local breeder?
I am sorry you lost your golden - it's so difficult when we lose these awesome dogs. I still remember losing our first one (at the young age of 7!) and the feelings that I'd never get over the heartbreak. At the time, I probably would have done anything to get a guarantee that I'd not lose a golden at a young age ever again.

Regarding "english creams" - I've owned 5 goldens - 1 would certainly pass as an "english cream" in terms of appearance AND he had real roots in England from the Camrose line of Goldens. He was never advertised as english cream and died (of cancer) at the age of 10. I have another golden who has an english appearance - light color, blocky head, etc but his roots (10 generation) are 100% US. The breeders I have used would never call either dog "english cream".

The negativity I feel about this particular term is related to breeders who suggest that english cream is something "different" than a golden retriever - as well as those breeders who have the audacity to suggest that because a dog is "english cream" that it is better, healthier, won't get cancer, etc, etc. The truth is this: we really do not know what causes cancer and/or how to prevent it and/or cure it.

One red flag I see in your post above is that you found a breeder thought a newspaper advertisement - most reputable breeders do not advertise in the newspaper so I would be very cautious about finding a golden that way. I'd also be cautious about a breeder who says I have a dog and son has a dog so we decided to get them together and make some puppies.

This forum has a TON of information regarding finding reputable breeders. Best of luck in finding a new Golden for your family.
 

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So recently my family and I have been starting to look for a new dog. We love the Golden Retriever breed but unfortunately we lost our Golden named Bogey from what we think was cancer. Because he was barely 8 when he passed we were shocked and devastated, only later finding out that Golden Retrievers have around a 60 percent chance of getting Cancer. After a lot of debate we were almost not going to get another Golden and instead get a mixed breed that would have better health but then we found out about the English Cream Golden.

I'm very confused to the controversy surrounding the English cream Golden's, I totally understand that they ARE the same breed as any other Golden retriever but with differences like head shape, snout shape, chest shape, and that fact that their chance of getting cancer is basically cut in half.

From what Iv'e seen there has been some animosity directed towards owners who want or have English Cream Golden's because it's supposedly a new fad or tend going around. However this is not why my family wants one, we want an English Cream Golden because we loved our dog so much and seeing him pass so early was one of the hardest things and we would want a dog with a significantly decreased chance for cancer. We also didn't want it to feel like we were just replacing our old golden for a new one but we really to love the Golden breed so having an English Cream Golden would give us the same look but not the same color making us feel like the new puppy was not just meant to fill in for our old dog.

Now about the breeders, Iv'e heard a lot of bad things on the internet about the breeders of the English Cream Golden's but I'm not sure I understand it entirely. We are currently looking at a small time breeder that we found in the newspaper who got her English Cream Golden and her Son's English Cream Golden together. Iv'e read a lot of things about English Cream Golden Breeders not insuring or checking their pups hips, ears and etc. but when we got our first Golden we got him from a very very good breeder who had all of his lines checked and he ended up with severe skin, ear and some hip problems- and then died of cancer. Isn't it all in the luck of the draw when it comes to picking a puppy? Can anyone really guarantee 100% healthy dog?

That's probably why I'm so confused when it comes to this English cream hate (hates probably too strong of a word sorry) so what if the breeder can't tell me that his or her puppy has a 100% great linage for health, because we had that guarantee and still ended up with a dog with a lot of problems. I feel like a lot of people act like these English Cream Golden's will sprout horns as soon as you get them or they say they are a scam like someone spray painted them white or something?

So on that note, someone please help me make sense of this? What should my family do- I agree with some about not wanting to go through the internet route and we defiantly don't want our puppy shipped over to us, but really what is the worst thing that can happen with going to a local breeder?
First off, sorry for your loss of Bogey.

Secondly, I definitely think "hate" is too strong a word for anyone on this forum's feelings toward ANY Golden Retriever regardless of color or lineage.

Thirdly, some definite red flags for me with the breeder. She says she got her ECGR and her son's together and produced puppies which she is advertising in the newspaper. Sounds to me like a complete amateur at worst or a BYB (Back Yard Breeder) at best. She saw an opportunity to make a few bucks or maybe she genuinely likes the breed and figured she'd let nature take its course. Whatever the case, as stated by others above legitimate breeders have puppies spoken for typically before they are conceived. As far as making claims that English Cream GRs are less prone to cancer, I have heard similar claims but have never seen scientifically obtained data to substantiate those claims. Like you said yourself, it's essentially luck of the draw and unfortunately we just don't yet have the knowledge to breed for 'cancer free goldens'.
 

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I admire many of the UK dogs- they are lovely. But they are not the same dogs as we see here advertised as English Cream/Crème. Unfortunately, most of the breeders you will find here selling EC dogs are not breeders who are students of the breed- they oftentimes don't do complete clearances and they do oftentimes state incorrect info such as 'less cancer'.... which has never been shown in any study done by reputable groups. What they do have is an equal chance of devastating cancer and probably due to inexperience in blending pedigrees (or more often, in this sort of breeder's program, breeding every bitch they own to the same stud dog who doesn't have any depth of clearances) may have even more of a chance of ED, HD, and almost certainly ichthyosis which is much more prevalent in the European dogs.
Anytime you find a breeder whose program is based on color instead of health temperament and correct conformation, you should probably look elsewhere.

The loss you experienced with Bogey is awful and I am very sorry for the gap you have in your life.... but what makes you think it was a cancer if you don't mind telling? Was he symptomatic, or is the fact he was a Golden all the vet was going on?
So many things can kill a dog suddenly- mushrooms are horrible killers, and they look so 'safe' just out in the yard growing....
 

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To the OP : I'm sure that, in your research, you've run across some well-respected breeders of English or European goldens that do not mention the "creme". Many Canadian and some American breeders use European stock and breed goldens that meet the European standard. My Luna is from European lines, and when someone asks if she's an "English Creme" I tell them that there's no recognized English Creme breed in any dog registration organization. She's a Golden retriever...
 

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I've been without my laptop computer the last couple days and hate finger-typing with the tablet... so this is a little late and you probably have gotten the responses you needed already....

1. Golden retrievers may have a high percentage as far as cancer goes, but majority of goldens SHOULD live well into old age. I would differentiate between "young cancer" and old cancer. Dogs developing cancer after age 11 - I would not even blink about that. In fact, my vet basically has expressed the opinion that when dogs get up into those geriatric years cancer is pretty common across the board. Regardless of breed. This includes mixed breeds.

The problem with early cancer is my opinion - there are multiple causes going on. It depends on where you live, for one thing. And what the dog is exposed to in its life, for another. This is probably really hard for some people - but if they've lost multiple dogs to early cancer and there's not relation between the dogs... sometimes you have to ask what else may be going on. What chemicals are used, etc...

I lost a golden to renal failure at age 6. No cancer. What the dog had was probably him born with a defective kidney. We were pretty lucky in that while he was symptomatic of something not being right all his life (right from when he was a puppy), he lived a "full life". A lot of the time, these dogs go into renal failure very early... he had littermates who died much earlier in life due to the same issue. That death (with him dying for 6 months after dx) was far worse than losing the next two dogs to old age cancer. Those dogs did not suffer. The last one especially - he only was sick the day before he died. That was it. And he (we were thinking) had a very good chance at living a good deal longer - except he died due to complications after surgery (blood clot).

Not saying I'd brush off cancer as a toothless bogeyman... I just don't see it as the most horrific thing to experience as a dog owner. Sometimes you have to be at peace with letting old dogs go when it is their time.

Obviously not the same thing when you are talking about a relatively young dog. My Jacks is going to be 8 in 2 months - and absolutely, I would be heartbroken and devastated if he died. But my gut feeling though - I'd look to get another boy just like him. Because everything about him is wonderful. And that's generally true of the breed - and why going with something completely different isn't something I "get". Actually, after losing that golden at age 6 - I had a "temper tantrum" because my sisters bought a really light puppy (recall my mom said in disgust the first time she saw him, "he's WHITE!"). I wanted a redhead just like the boy we lost. Of course that blond puppy changed my mind about "blond goldens". About now, I pretty much favor that light to medium gold coloring - just because I love the look of these dogs and there's sentimentality mixed in there. Getting a dog that looks like your past boy - it's nothing to do with "replacing" the previous dog. :)

2. Animosity towards people who get English cremes, etc... I'm not going to lie and say I love the look. But as little as I appreciate the look of some of these dogs (not all, but definitely a good bunch that people breed over here - admittedly, I don't always appreciate the look of well-bred goldens sometimes when they've been bred to really crazy extremes from pot bellies, short legs, no coat, too light, low set ears, and round eyes)... that isn't the problem. Sometimes the problem is the owners of these dogs - and/or they are the ones causing the negative reaction, not the dogs.

My gut reaction when I have somebody presenting their dog as a show dog just because it has a "white coat" (yes, that's the color the owners say)... it's pretty much me being polite and completely disregarding the dog. I've been to dog shows where you have people bringing their "English goldens" to show off at the show... and they look like a completely different breed. And not in a good way. It's pretty much along the same lines of "looking like a different breed" that you have with maybe the people down the street who bought a backyard bred golden out of the newspaper.... <= I have a neighbor whose female golden is about 25" tall at the shoulder as a big difference just for starters.

My point is that when you have people putting up their dogs as better than the rest and charging a bunch for puppies from these dogs... it's difficult not observing that these dogs are not the best bred creatures out there. A lot of the time you have some people buying a boy dog and girl dog, making sure they both have light coats.... and then they make puppies to sell.

3. What you should probably be looking for is health clearances and buy a puppy from a breeder who (a) had some blueprint plan that led to that breeding, not just a matter of them having both parents handy and making puppies to sell and (b) belongs to local golden retriever clubs and if not active in the breed, then maintaining connections within the breed so they stay up on everything going on in the breed + there is accountability for what/how they breed.
 
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