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Puddles
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Dreaming tree has no verifiable clearances on OFA. Their "stud dog" and their female Silva (only one listed on k9data) are both carriers for ICT which means some of their puppies will be affected. No info on the other female listed.

None of their dogs have elbows or heart or eye on OFA, much less hips. Sorry but not impressed and would stick with Tanglewood.
 

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And on the Tanglewood- watch the heart clearances. Look for numbers that either start w ACA or end w C-VPI, C-PI or C-NOPI.

The practitioner clearances- especially in Euro lines- need to be cardiologist not practitioner, which is essentially useless. Practitioner clearances end w P-something (VPI PI or NOPI)
 

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I am always weary at anyone who sells "trained English Goldens". It is almost always a scam. There are threads after threads about this all over the forum.

Right of the bat "Edison" their stud...no verifiable OFA clearances whatsoever. They state he has clear elbows, but in the US, OFA is the only registration for elbow clearances, and if they are not on the OFA database he either failed or he hasn't been tested.

Silva - No OFA Clearances. All of her clearances are foreign, and because she is now living and being bred in the USA she needs American clearances through OFA.

Bisha - Same as above ^
 

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Edison- she states he has wonderful PH numbers but we do not know when they were done,but we do know he was not 24+ months old as would be appropriate, since it is input there at less than 24 mo old. She also states he has normal elbow but we do know that's not so- PH does not do elbows and he has no OFA page (so IF she did prelims on OFA, that was well before 24 months and basically don't count). My general ROT is if I find a lie I stop looking, and on the stud dog I have already hit one. He is an ICT carrier yet she is breeding him to carrier bitches.
Silva- I just feel sorry for this girl. She came from Serbia, was sold to Netherlands, and is now in GA after at least one litter in Jan2016 in Netherlands. She made a goodly number of puppies for that breeder, so is fecund, why sell her to the US? Reading through her change history, it appears she did get the foreign clearances she has after 24 months but there is no way to verify they are actually done. She is an ICT carrier.
Bisha- appears to be structurally the best of these three- the other two I wouldn't consider unless the pics are just horrible, but if the breeder posts horrible pics, that says something about their eye. She has no clearances to breed on- her foreign ones were done at 8 months old. She too is an ICT carrier.
This breeder might be a great trainer- or not- no way to tell. She has no titles which prove training ability on any of her dogs. She does not compete, that is obvious in the first 19 seconds of puppy Savannah's heeling video. My footwork is not stellar but hers makes mine look stellar.
Is coat color that important to you? If it is, there are breeders in Atlanta area whose dogs would produce light coats. There is NO safety in eastern euro pedigrees no matter what press you read.. and perhaps less safety there re: hearts. And if it is that they offer training- that footwork indicates that this is not a trainer you would choose if you decided to actually PROVE your dog's ability in the obedience ring. And if she wants to be a real trainer, she ought go out and put some advanced level titles on her own dogs (or even basic CDs on them). I would trust Joanne's program WAY sooner than this one who is breeding without clearances carrier to carrier and claiming things that are not verifiable.
 

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The dam that is going to be bred is Kiera at Tanglewood. Appreciate any insight.
Who is Kiera being bred to?

EDIT: I realize you may have meant that at Tanglewood, the upcoming litter is out of Kiera. NOT by Edison. When you find out who she is being bred to we can help you look at that pairing as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I do like the lighter color of the English so that is what we have been looking for but after two labs who had significant health issues, a healthy dog is the most important. If we could get both the light color and good health, that would be ideal.
 

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Kiera has a cardiologist heart clearance- good- but her BVAs were done @ 14 mo or less, based on change history on k9data.
That's not old enough to be considered a final. I worry more about elbows than hips as far as future costs if dysplasia happens, but that may not be the area of health you are worried about.
The thing is w these foreign clearances- all good to do them,but do them at 24 + months, since these breeders live in the US and our clearances are more stringent here. And then send them to OFA for listing- costs like nothing, in the grand scheme of things ( I dk how much it is but doubt it is over $40 and certainly as a US breeder who signs the Code of Ethics yearly one should do this). Mallory Genrich is not a GRCA member (as of end Sept 2019). Joanne Cava is a GRCA member. The Code does not dictate who clears dogs but does dictate two things- that they be listed on a database that is not user input (OFA is the only one) and that they be done after 24 months.
 

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Kristy
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Kiera has a cardiologist heart clearance- good- but her BVAs were done @ 14 mo or less, based on change history on k9data.
That's not old enough to be considered a final. I worry more about elbows than hips as far as future costs if dysplasia happens, but that may not be the area of health you are worried about.
The thing is w these foreign clearances- all good to do them,but do them at 24 + months, since these breeders live in the US and our clearances are more stringent here. And then send them to OFA for listing- costs like nothing, in the grand scheme of things ( I dk how much it is but doubt it is over $40 and certainly as a US breeder who signs the Code of Ethics yearly one should do this). Mallory Genrich is not a GRCA member (as of end Sept 2019). Joanne Cava is a GRCA member. The Code does not dictate who clears dogs but does dictate two things- that they be listed on a database that is not user input (OFA is the only one) and that they be done after 24 months.
Robin, thank you so much for devoting time and continuing to educate people here. I never thought about it this way: every single year that a breeder is a member of the GRCA they are signing a code of ethics - and then certain breeders choose not to follow certain pieces of this? I don't care how nice a breeder is, (and Joanne is a super nice lady) this is not who I want to purchase a puppy from. What is up with a person rolling the dice and deciding the rules that apply to everyone else don't apply to her? It is a red flag. And honestly, it's disappointing to me.

OP, we all desperately want our dogs to be healthy. Please take the "english" out of your search parameter and look at some of the ideas from Prism on breeders in the Atlanta area who are adhering to the code of ethics and I promise you will LOVE the look of the dog you end up with. And you can at least feel good about who you're giving your money to.
 

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I appreciate the information!! I checked and the Tanglewood dam is actually Poppins. The site says she is bred with Maverick who is at goldensglen. I couldn't find the info for him though although there is something labeled test breeding in K9data. Prism, your info is so helpful and I really appreciate your taking the time to post all this. You mentioned that there are breeders near Atlanta that adhere to the code of ethics and have dogs that tend toward the lighter end sometimes. Are there any in particular you recommend?
 

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Robin
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I appreciate the information!! I checked and the Tanglewood dam is actually Poppins. The site says she is bred with Maverick who is at goldensglen. I couldn't find the info for him though although there is something labeled test breeding in K9data. Prism, your info is so helpful and I really appreciate your taking the time to post all this. You mentioned that there are breeders near Atlanta that adhere to the code of ethics and have dogs that tend toward the lighter end sometimes. Are there any in particular you recommend?
Here is Maverick:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=860876
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1998452

Here is Poppins:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=556746
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1623110

They both have their hips and elbows cleared through BVA (British Veterinary Association), and they both were done before the age of two years old. That is standard in the U.K. and Europe, but to meet the GRCA CoE here in the U.S., they should be done after the age of two (whether it’s OFA, BVA, FCI, etc.) if they live here in the U.S.
 

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I appreciate the information!! I checked and the Tanglewood dam is actually Poppins. The site says she is bred with Maverick who is at goldensglen. I couldn't find the info for him though although there is something labeled test breeding in K9data. Prism, your info is so helpful and I really appreciate your taking the time to post all this. You mentioned that there are breeders near Atlanta that adhere to the code of ethics and have dogs that tend toward the lighter end sometimes. Are there any in particular you recommend?

I can recommend an excellent Atlanta breeder (She's not an "English creme" breeder as I would never use such a breeder. She does occasionally have puppies who skew to the lighter shade.) but I only make breeder recommendations through Private Message so I'll send you one.
 

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Puddles
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Sorry but disappointed in this pairing... to add to the other points already posted Poppins eyes are very out of date and Maverick has eye issues. That would be very concerning to me. This has the potential for some serious eye problems.

I've heard really good things on this forum about this kennel (Tangleloft) and hope one of the breeders on the forum actually knows them and can offer a more positive perspective. As a puppy buyer going by the verifiable information, this would not be someone I would recommend.
 

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Robin
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Sorry but disappointed in this pairing... to add to the other points already posted Poppins eyes are very out of date and Maverick has eye issues. That would be very concerning to me. This has the potential for some serious eye problems.

I've heard really good things on this forum about this kennel (Tangleloft) and hope one of the breeders on the forum actually knows them and can offer a more positive perspective. As a puppy buyer going by the verifiable information, this would not be someone I would recommend.
This is tanglewood, not tangleloft. They’ve both been discussed a lot on the forum and had favorable comments. This is why it’s so important to verify everything.
 

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I appreciate the information!! I checked and the Tanglewood dam is actually Poppins. The site says she is bred with Maverick who is at goldensglen. I couldn't find the info for him though although there is something labeled test breeding in K9data. Prism, your info is so helpful and I really appreciate your taking the time to post all this. You mentioned that there are breeders near Atlanta that adhere to the code of ethics and have dogs that tend toward the lighter end sometimes. Are there any in particular you recommend?
Helena Lamont (Bearabella) is west of Atlanta, and her dogs are almost all light in coat color. They're correct and she follows the CoE.

Penny Lites (Pendary) is east of Atlanta, and her dogs too are very light in color. She too follows the Code in her breedings. Though I always say 'check anyway' I am sure you would be in good hands with either of them.
 

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I've met several Tanglewood Golden dogs and they are exactly what you would expect from an English style golden, gorgeous blocky heads and sweet tempered. The breeder also has a good reputation in this area and has mentored other breeders.

I also think that people become too dependent on these GRCA health clearances and forget about every other element of care needed to keep a golden healthy and minimize the risk of cancer. A hip clearance is worthless if you neuter a dog too early and run them too hard on the wrong surface. Breed conformity can lead to inbreeding and genetic issues.

All that being said, the Poppins/Maverick test breed contains something that makes me insane given the prevalence of cancer in goldens - the dam and the sire share a grandparent. It drives me crazy when I can clearly see the highest genetic contributor in the first five generations. I don't understand going to the trouble of importing dogs only to further inbreed them. Ugh. The test breeding isn't the worst example of inbreeding I have ever seen, but I would not want to see this in my puppy.
 

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Sorry but disappointed in this pairing... to add to the other points already posted Poppins eyes are very out of date and Maverick has eye issues. That would be very concerning to me. This has the potential for some serious eye problems.

I've heard really good things on this forum about this kennel (Tangleloft) and hope one of the breeders on the forum actually knows them and can offer a more positive perspective. As a puppy buyer going by the verifiable information, this would not be someone I would recommend.
Tangleloft is Lindsay MacDowell or her mother Sandy Dunn- and they are in the NE. They follow the Code. I think Tanglewood is who you are referring to- she is in SC.
Agree on the eye issues.

Ultimately, to me (and this is my opinion based solely on the care for and future of the breed) there is no reason not to list all clearances on OFA, and no reason not to follow the best practices we have laid out for us in the CoE. I just called OFA to inquire as to cost to list BVA. It is $25 total (hips and elbows together) and they ask them to be sent w a CC # instead of a check since they are 'sometimes funky and are impossible to read so listing is on a case by case basis'.... which just tells me that either the funkiness (not my word- she used that word) is so exaggerated that they don't list many or that there is major lazy involved not to submit to OFA when one lives and breeds in the US. $25. Really. Who can't pay that, and the $8 for eyes and the $15 for heart...yet sells puppies.
 
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