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When I read your post, it reminded me of the shop assistant I was talking to yesterday about our dogs, she has a 6 month old retriever pup, and was going on about how she wanted to use him for breeding, because he was "so lovely". I think too many people have this attitude, and have little or no thought for the health clearances needed in order to be regarded as a responsible "breeder". She had the idea of getting her own bitch to use her "lovely" dog on.... hmmmmm!!!!

Even if this lady only has one dog and one bitch, she should still have all the health clearances done on them before even thinking about breeding. To knowingly produce puppies having not done this is irresponsible to say the least.

Also, as others have said, who can resist a pup, I know I couldn't!!! Also, we all think our dogs are "lovely" that doesn't mean we should breed from them.

Good luck in your search, I look forward to hearing how you're getting on with it.
Tanya
 

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Murphy's mom
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Keep looking. Even with a full refund and not giving back the puppy...why would they not be doing all the clearances recommended!?!

You will find the right breeder. They are out there. This is the time to be smart and take your time. Your are doing it right! :yes:
 

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FWIW, she might not even know about all the clearances, etc. It sounds like she's trying to do the right thing (milk suppliment?), but is lacking direction.

I got Zack from an older couple doing the same thing. They were most definitely doing it for the love of the breed, they both grew up with goldens and it's what they started doing when they retired. They spared absolutely no expense on creating what amounted to be a Golden paradise, 200+ acres of mountain land, an impressive indoor nursery for their pups; and they spent a lot of time each day just holding and talking to them individually. Both parents were on site, family dogs. Dad's parents where title holders, as were Mom's - but dad and mom weren't ever shown, they had no interest in that.

There's no doubt in my mind that this couple wanted the best for the breed, and the best for their pups. They also didn't have the internet, so they were missing the boat on several things. For us, seeing how genuine and caring the couple was, how open they were to us visiting with Zack, it all added up to what I perceived to be a better overall experience. And of course, I didn't now then what I know now, Zack was the egg to which the GRF is the chicken.
 

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Where The Bitches Rule
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Oh one other question...I have spoken to 2 other breeders one offers a full refund for health probs (within the 1st 2 years), without returning the puppy, but does not have all clearances. Another offers a refund upon the return of the puppy if it has health problems (I know that I couldn't return the puppy after even one day) and has all clearances. Having all the clearances makes me feel better, but I know I couldn't give the puppy back, so basically that equates to no refund - Which is the better way to go, if I were to choose one of these breeders...or should I just keep looking all together???

Hello and welcome to the forum. Looking for that special dog can be very labor intense and frustrating, but don't lower your expectations/standards because you are having trouble finding it as quickly as you had hoped. With the two examples above I would suggest you skip on both breeders. The person who requires the return of the pup for a refund in my opinion is not keeping the best interest of the pup at heart. As for the other breeder who does not have all the clearances, why not? Did they just not do them all? Did one of the dogs fail one? While I would tkke these answers into account for my own purpose if looking for a pup, I would not tell you to do the same.

Good luck in your search and I look forward to hear more with regard to your search.
 

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I think everybody who steered you away from this BYB is pretty spot-on. These days, there's no excuse for breeding dogs without hip, elbow, heart, and eye clearances. It's not terribly expensive to get them done, and they pay for themselves down the road.

I too had a BYB dog a long time ago, and he is the dog responsible for my having fallen in love with the breed. Nonetheless, he had shoulder surgery at three to repair a genetic defect that the father and several of his littermates had. His parents were the two intact household dogs of some people down the street. He was not bred thoughtfully or carefully, and though he was a credit to the breed in terms of temperament, he would have had a better life if his "breeders" had taken more care in matching up his parents. You're not really acting in the breed's best interest if all you're doing is mating your pets.

I'm sure lots of people who have had BYB dogs never had a problem. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make every effort to decrease the odds of having to put a dog through expensive and, worse, painful injury, surgery, and recovery.

As far as health guarantees, if a breeder is doing all clearances, why not ask them to draw up a rider in your contract that states they'll refund a certain percentage of the purchase price in the event of a genetic problem like hip or elbow dysplasia? If they have all the clearances and they haven't been seeing it in their dogs, they may be willing to do so, since the financial risk and reward balance out for them. They also may be happy to hear that you would not give up a dog under any circumstances and would simply like the financial help of the purchase price (or a large percentage of it) being given back to you to go towards medical bills.

With that kind of rider in the contract, a dog with all clearances, even an expensive one, is dramatically cheaper than a BYB dog. A well-bred dog might cost $1000-$2000, but that might not even cover one hip.
 

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Where The Bitches Rule
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As far as health guarantees, if a breeder is doing all clearances, why not ask them to draw up a rider in your contract that states they'll refund a certain percentage of the purchase price in the event of a genetic problem like hip or elbow dysplasia? If they have all the clearances and they haven't been seeing it in their dogs, they may be willing to do so, since the financial risk and reward balance out for them. They also may be happy to hear that you would not give up a dog under any circumstances and would simply like the financial help of the purchase price (or a large percentage of it) being given back to you to go towards medical bills.

With that kind of rider in the contract, a dog with all clearances, even an expensive one, is dramatically cheaper than a BYB dog. A well-bred dog might cost $1000-$2000, but that might not even cover one hip.

Speaking from my breeding days I would have a problem with this. If a breeder has done everything humanly possible to try and prevent health issues with the pups how can you hold him/her responsible if something does go wrong. Now if the breeder has not gotten one of the clearances on one of the dogs used in the breeding and you wish to hold them responsible for that specific thing I can understand that. In my puppy contract I stated " Reasonable precautions have been taken to prevent the Puppy from acquiring hereditary faults, however due to unknown hereditary and environmental causes of such faults, no guarantee can be given against them. NO GUARANTEES OR WARNANTIES, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, ARE GIVEN BY THE BREEDER"
In my limited breeding I was extremely fortunate that I have not had to deal with any health issues popping up, other than a pup I kept for myself.
 

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Loving goldens since '95
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I doubt the parents have hips cleared or they were "cleared" by her vet. She says she can have your puppy tested if you want that done...but how do you test an 8 week old puppy's hips? Sounds like a nice lady that doesn't know what she's doing other than letting nature take its course & making some money on the side.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Run while you can!
 

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Didn't mean to hi-jack your thread but I also have a question. In case of a puppy that cost more than $1000, do you think the breeder should give a one or two year guarantee for the puppy? Is guarantee that important for you if both parents of the dog are hip/eye/heart clear?
 

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Speaking from my breeding days I would have a problem with this. If a breeder has done everything humanly possible to try and prevent health issues with the pups how can you hold him/her responsible if something does go wrong. Now if the breeder has not gotten one of the clearances on one of the dogs used in the breeding and you wish to hold them responsible for that specific thing I can understand that. In my puppy contract I stated " Reasonable precautions have been taken to prevent the Puppy from acquiring hereditary faults, however due to unknown hereditary and environmental causes of such faults, no guarantee can be given against them. NO GUARANTEES OR WARNANTIES, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, ARE GIVEN BY THE BREEDER"
In my limited breeding I was extremely fortunate that I have not had to deal with any health issues popping up, other than a pup I kept for myself.
Hey Hank,

I didn't mean to imply that a breeder who didn't provide such a guarantee was irresponsible, simply that, from the buyer's end of things, I found it to be a desirable clause to have in the contract. I've known breeders who will refund part or all of the purchase price in order to help out with the medical costs of dysplasia, and since they've taken every possible precaution, it's a rare occurrence for them.

It's certainly not a litmus test for whether a breeder is responsible or not, and it's not a punitive way of holding a breeder responsible for a mistake, since, as we all know, even a breeder who follows all the best practices can still produce a dog who is dysplastic. It's a way for a breeder to state confidence in the joints he or she is producing and to provide the buyer with some peace of mind.

The breeder is certainly welcome to reject the idea of such a rider, and it would probably work best if it were specifically for cleared issues (i.e., hips and elbows), rather than for all arguably hereditary diseases. But it's something worth thinking about.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Thank you all so very much - I cannot tell you how much I have learned in the last week or so that I have been a member of this forum! I am really trying to find the right puppy from the right breeder and it gets overwhelming at times - doesn't help that I can't wait to get a puppy - but I am trying to go into this with my eyes wide open and all your advice really helps!

Tippykayak - thanks for the rider siggestion - I hadn't thought of requesting that. I can understand for the reasons that AmbikaGR gave, why a breeder might refuse, but it can't hurt to ask!

AmbikaGR - You know I hadn't thought of the possiblity that a breeder might not test or mention a test because there may have been a failure somewhere - very good point!

Yukari3 - Hijack away - I'd love to hear/read the answer to your question too!

I have contacted a couple of other breeders today, who have puppies available soon, so we'll see how that goes...

Thank you all again so much for your help!
 
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