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Kate
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Had one of those days today where it began with me chatting with my new boss and he heard my dogs making dog noises near me and asked me what breeds they were - again (he's been working for the company since Nov and has asked me many times what my dogs are, never remembers LOLOL).

When he heard goldens - his immediately comments were he loves the breed, but could never get them because they shed too much.

I couldn't dispute that, so I was just yeah. They do shed.

But anyway.

Went to get my hair "did" and chatted a ton with my stylists. She was all tickled to show me a picture of her brother's new puppy - which is a pembroke corgi. He wanted a puppy, reserved a puppy with a breeder before Christmas, and brought pup home now. That's all it took. Done did. Period.

My stylist's parents had 3-4 dogs and they lost 2 of them last year and are in the waiting process for a blue heeler puppy. They've always had blue heelers + have land, so it's an ideal dog for them. Waiting process is simply they found a breeder with puppies, put a deposit, and are waiting for the pups to be old enough to go home. No stress, no length search/waiting times, and breeders were easy to deal with.

Then went home to pick up my sister and my dogs and went grocery shopping. I checked out first and went out to the car to hang out with my dogs - ended up meeting a nice lady out there in the parking lot who came over to visit with the dogs and chit chat.

She told me how she and her husband had just purchased a golden puppy for her daughter's birthday. I didn't recognize the breeder's name and did not ask questions, but it was very similar to other people of other breeds. They set out to look for a new golden puppy. They did careful research to make sure the breeder was conscientious and not overbreeding the dogs. Did not mention clearances or anything like that, so suspect those were not part of the research - but I really hate putting people on the spot, especially when they are so nice. Woman was clearly a golden person herself - the dogs knew it. They were all poking their heads out and giving her "whisker-kisses". She was so tickled and excited about getting the puppy for her daughter - and if her daughter was anything like her, I know that's going to be a good home. Daughter's golden was 12 when it passed.

Anyway.

I wondered a little if we all live in a weird vacuum. Other breeds do not seem to have the "breeder politics" that we do. But other breeds have more byb and puppy mill issues than goldens. There's more of those other breeds ending up in rescues and shelters - so I do know to an extent that the protective walls around this breeds are there for reason. But going from seeing the desperation in many posts here in this forum with people waiting up to 2 years just to have a chance at a puppy (no guarantees)..... and then talking to regular dog people around town who do not go through the same extraordinary distress in getting a pup.... it just makes me wonder a little if that is where the "you are elitists" opinion comes from.

The living in a weird vacuum thing.... I know the value of waiting to get a pup who had full clearances. And there's people out there who are more selective than I am. It's not just full clearances, but the dna stuff too. And so on.

Go outside of that vacuum, people have very different values. And it's not stuff that makes them bad owners. Many of these people I know and talk to... they are very experienced dog owners.

My stylist - she kinda chuckled when I flipped out about having 3-4 heelers. They seem like very difficult dogs to me, but she said that they are great dogs. She compared them to rottweilers in temperament. Which me as a golden person meant something completely different than she meant.

Just random thoughts for today....

Oh and here's a picture of a kissable dog for everyone to look at. :D

879732
 

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Very kissable!
 

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I am new here, and to the Golden community or Expensive dog community in general and I agree that many of you are kind of in a vacuum. Before I joined here I had no idea that OFA existed, the concept of getting x-rays or genetic testing for a dog seemed absurd, and I loved the couple dozen dogs I've owned over the years as much as anybody.

In order to get my puppy I looked on Craigslist, talked to a few breeders about availability and found one who had what we wanted, a large Golden with hunters in its history, even was the right color. I didn't ask about hips or genes or anything really. It does appear that I lucked out as I have been able to verify with OFA that the dogs parents and past generations are sound, but I honestly don't believe that would have impacted my decision.
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I don't know that I'd characterize the golden community as "a vacuum". Ungracious folks might characterize it as "closed", or "elitist". More gracious folks might characterize it is "committed" and "close" (vice "closed"). Then again, I have no comparison with other hobbyist communities.

Personally, I'd characterize it as a sub-culture. And, as with any sub-culture, it's helpful to visit others, gain perspective, yadda-yadda-yadda. One of my sons played "club baseball" in SoCal. Yet another sub-culture. Baseball almost 52-weeks out of the year. Practices. Weekend tournaments. Holiday tournaments. $400 bats. $250 gloves. $100 spikes. Club fees. Tournament fees. Hotels and meals. If you were in it, you knew pretty much all the other families - both on your team and on others. And? It could easily consumer all of your time and focus. I don't regret that time, but there are times when I wonder if maybe it would've been good to take a breather (we did, it just didn't seem like it, at times).

Anyhow, other parents (those whose kids didn't get invited to play on these teams) could never really understand what we were doing. Especially not the time and financial commitment. Then again, they were invested into dirt bikes, or boats, or...or...or...each with their own sub-culture comprised of those with similar interests.

If life's a buffet, then make sure to get small samples of everything...and then pile up on the ones that taste really good. 😁
 

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I’m so irritated today too like I don’t even get how to put my thoughts together.
I just think breeding is so taboo in mainstream that people are just ignorant to actual ethical breeding looks like.

on Facebook a women posted her Aussie cattle and shepherd puppies. Within minutes people keep commenting “price? What’s the price?. PM me price?”
Not one person asked about the health of the parents. Like either people don’t care, desperate, or are ignorant.
 

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Kate
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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I don't know that I'd characterize the golden community as "a vacuum". Ungracious folks might characterize it as "closed", or "elitist". More gracious folks might characterize it is "committed" and "close" (vice "closed"). Then again, I have no comparison with other hobbyist communities.
But what I was saying is looking outside, particularly at other breeds.... they don't have the same sense of political jockeying for everything that they seem to do in goldens. Sometimes it gets so wearying and stressful to see what people are constantly talking about and complaining about and being fully accepting of..... It's all online it seems. it's not from the golden people I know in real life! Most that I know, including some who are the biggest names in this breed are really practical and down to earth when it comes to the dogs and pet homes.

This isn't me saying we should have more backyard breeders selling puppies to anyone and everyone for cheap prices.... but I don't see these dogs themselves like an expensive hobby and that's an excuse for telling some people that if they can't afford the dogs, they can't afford to care for the dogs so stinks to be them, go adopt a rescue..... :rolleyes:

Owning a dog is not a hobby. It's expanding your family to include a 4 legged member who you love and spoil. Some dog owners are eccentric and weird. Some are regular folks who lost a golden years ago but still have tears coming to their eyes when talking to complete strangers about that dog.

What you do with the dogs - that's the hobby or hobbies.

Go away from the forum and observe people around you in real life.... I'll never forget standing at the petstore waiting to go in to chip my puppy at the time (microchip clinic) and this guy came in carrying a very old GSP in his arms. The dog was so old that she couldn't handle walking on the slippery floor there at the petstore, so the owner carried her in. And he stood there waiting (holding her) to go in for the vet clinic (I think getting a vaccine).

We golden people get uppity uppity in some ways, but we struggle to get our goldens to live into their teens. And to a certain extent some of us have come to terms with life expectancy only being 10-12 for our dogs.

But other breeds where you can get puppies whose parents are crazy loaded with championships of every kind and variety and whose life expectancy is 12-16 years on average.... they don't have the same run a marathon, jump through hoops, wait six years on a waiting list, etc.... stuff posted on their online groups that we do. It's all different....
 

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We golden people get uppity uppity in some ways, but we struggle to get our goldens to live into their teens. And to a certain extent some of us have come to terms with life expectancy only being 10-12 for our dogs.

But other breeds where you can get puppies whose parents are crazy loaded with championships of every kind and variety and whose life expectancy is 12-16 years on average.... they don't have the same run a marathon, jump through hoops, wait six years on a waiting list, etc.... stuff posted on their online groups that we do. It's all different....
Because of these factors do you think it’s resulted in a community that needs to been vigilant or things could become worse for the breed if we don’t?
 

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When I first talked to my friends and coworkers that I'm planning to get a dog, most of them expect me to purchase one from a pet store and they expect it to happen over the weekend. I feel that's the only option in their mind other than adopting from a shelter or rescue.
Then I mentioned I'm looking for a breeder and some of them just getting confused. A friend with dogs was very excited about it and said one of their dogs is from a breeder. I went further to ask about how they found a good breeder, they said they found a really nice family on craigslist and I realized it's just a byb. They also suggests me to look into breeders in Pennsylvania as they heard there are many dog breeders over there and I know she is talking about the commercial breeders.
Some of my dog-lover friends were very excited about me getting a dog and kept asking me if I get one yet. When I mentioned to my friends I'm frustrated in finding a puppy from a good breeder and they always have long waiting list and can be a year of wait, my friends just don't understand (and literally asked me) why I can't simply go to a pet store and asked me if I checked craigslist. Even I explained to them why I'm looking for a good breeder, I know they don't agree with me and they think I'm just upsetting myself by setting an unnecessary high standard.
My husband's coworker was shocked to hear that we are expecting the price for a golden puppy in the range of 3-5k. He has a purebred medium size dog and it was a couple of hundred dollars. The coworker did a quick search online and showed my husband that we can get a golden puppy for less than 1k and was worried that we are getting scammed....
All those people around us are not bad people, they care about us and want to help us. But in the end I feel I'm in a very different world. Luckily I can always come back to this forum and see people talking about things that make me feel more connected.
 

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When I first talked to my friends and coworkers that I'm planning to get a dog, most of them expect me to purchase one from a pet store and they expect it to happen over the weekend. I feel that's the only option in their mind other than adopting from a shelter or rescue.
Then I mentioned I'm looking for a breeder and some of them just getting confused. A friend with dogs was very excited about it and said one of their dogs is from a breeder. I went further to ask about how they found a good breeder, they said they found a really nice family on craigslist and I realized it's just a byb. They also suggests me to look into breeders in Pennsylvania as they heard there are many dog breeders over there and I know she is talking about the commercial breeders.
Some of my dog-lover friends were very excited about me getting a dog and kept asking me if I get one yet. When I mentioned to my friends I'm frustrated in finding a puppy from a good breeder and they always have long waiting list and can be a year of wait, my friends just don't understand (and literally asked me) why I can't simply go to a pet store and asked me if I checked craigslist. Even I explained to them why I'm looking for a good breeder, I know they don't agree with me and they think I'm just upsetting myself by setting an unnecessary high standard.
My husband's coworker was shocked to hear that we are expecting the price for a golden puppy in the range of 3-5k. He has a purebred medium size dog and it was a couple of hundred dollars. The coworker did a quick search online and showed my husband that we can get a golden puppy for less than 1k and was worried that we are getting scammed....
All those people around us are not bad people, they care about us and want to help us. But in the end I feel I'm in a very different world. Luckily I can always come back to this forum and see people talking about things that make me feel more connected.
Lol tell them the exact specifications you want and then tell them to go on the hunt. Unless the dog meets those specs they need to continue looking. Have them join this search so they can get better educated themselves.
 

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Lol tell them the exact specifications you want and then tell them to go on the hunt. Unless the dog meets those specs they need to continue looking. Have them join this search so they can get better educated themselves.
Well, when I'm the only one in their life that saying and doing these things, it's hard to get them understand why I insist on certain standards. They respect me by stopping suggesting pet store but I can't have them on the exact same page with me. Some even feel that the reason I don't go to a pet store is because in their mind, puppies from a breeder is much cheaper and they think pet store pets are the best quality and that's why it's expensive... I explained everything but I can tell they are not sure about it, and if they want a puppy for themselves one day, they will probably still just go to a pet store. Some others know that puppy mill and pet store are really bad and believe that a byb breeder is already a high standard. It's hard to educate someone who is not motivated to learn more about it. I think it's also because they often hear and see people around them getting a dog from pet store or commercial breeder and rarely hear someone do what I was doing. They see people get a dog very easily and end up just fine and they would feel why bother so much like me. Anyway, it's my life and my dog. Glad my family is on the same page with me and that's good enough.
 

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Kristy
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I just think Goldens are the perfect storm of popular, versatile breed being owned in huge numbers by people of all walks of life and also being the breed of choice of the nerdy, obsessive dog hobby people. We have more pet homes, more dog sport homes, more homes that probably tend to be slightly better educated/informed (I do not mean smarter, I mean more tuned in) with all the advantages the networks of like-minded friends provide and now we are connected with the internet like never before. That's where the vacuum comes from.

Because Goldens are so versatile, biddable/people pleasing and athletic they have are in the homes of those nerdy folks who take being a dog lover to a granular level and over the past 20 years, the internet allows us to be more connected which really magnifies this. Traditionally popular breeds like Labs and GSDs might have issues similar to Goldens but I don't see sport people competing with those two breeds in multiple sports in nearly the same numbers as Goldens. I checked AKC and see that French Bulldogs broke into the top 4 about 3 years ago and I bet it will be higher next year. But again, these are pet homes who see them on Instagram and think they're cute and not dog hobby homes. Their breed standard reads - Temperament: Well behaved, adaptable, and comfortable companions with an affectionate nature and even disposition; generally active, alert, and playful, but not unduly boisterous. As long as they can be potty trained I would bet they aren't being turned into rescues in huge numbers. They are low maintenance for coat and health and don't have a ton of health problems yet. Fits the Netflix lifestyle much easier than the responsibilities that go along with happily owning a Golden, Lab or GSD. Our vacuum comes from Goldens being so popular, with plenty of problems and not being the perfect fit for a lot of people who don't figure it out in advance.
 

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But what I was saying is looking outside, particularly at other breeds.... they don't have the same sense of political jockeying for everything that they seem to do in goldens.
This is interesting to me cause I either don't see it or am not understanding what you mean. What political jockeying? I know there are politics that revolve around dog sports (be it conformation or performance sports) that involve handlers and alleged favoritism. But are there other examples? Are we circling back to "this is a good breeder, but this one isn't a good breeder"?
I just think Goldens are the perfect storm of popular, versatile breed being owned in huge numbers by people of all walks of life and also being the breed of choice of the nerdy, obsessive dog hobby people.
I think this hits the nail on the head. Goldens are massively popular. Anytime you have something that appeals to MANY there will always be subsets that emerge that, for lack of a better word atm, gatekeep. The ones that go like "Oh you're not a real <insert hobby or interest here> unless..."
Do we in the GF community gatekeep? eh.... Kinda? But not really. We don't say you're not a breeder unless you do x, y, z. But we do say you're not an ethical/reputable breeder unless you do x,y,z.

@Megora do you think we've become a circlejerk? For those of you unfamiliar with internet slang, it's "a circlejerk is a self-congratulatory echo chamber where people surround themselves with people who agree with them to the point that discussions get dumbed down to people patting one another on the back for having the same opinions."
 

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Well, when I'm the only one in their life that saying and doing these things, it's hard to get them understand why I insist on certain standards. They respect me by stopping suggesting pet store but I can't have them on the exact same page with me. Some even feel that the reason I don't go to a pet store is because in their mind, puppies from a breeder is much cheaper and they think pet store pets are the best quality and that's why it's expensive... I explained everything but I can tell they are not sure about it, and if they want a puppy for themselves one day, they will probably still just go to a pet store. Some others know that puppy mill and pet store are really bad and believe that a byb breeder is already a high standard. It's hard to educate someone who is not motivated to learn more about it. I think it's also because they often hear and see people around them getting a dog from pet store or commercial breeder and rarely hear someone do what I was doing. They see people get a dog very easily and end up just fine and they would feel why bother so much like me. Anyway, it's my life and my dog. Glad my family is on the same page with me and that's good enough.
I totally get you
I had family come in from out of town with their designed mutt rat dog . I just didn’t say anything because I feel like that conversation is an iceberg that requires a lot of patients. While at the same time your navigating the other persons feelings and the fact they already have the dog too. Idk
 

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I think we are kindof in our own little vacuum/bubble as a breed to an extent, but I also think the dog show/sports world in general exists in its own bubble. Wait times may be slightly less for less popular breeds, but show breeders across the board don't generally have more than 2 litters a year, depending on size. So if you want a high quality Aussie from a really good breeder who does all the things, you're still going to have to build that relationship, stalk the facebook page, wait til pups are on the ground, and cross your fingers to get one.

On the blue heeler subject, I grew up with these dogs, and I wouldn't compare them to Rottweilers........................................ Temperament wise, they are cocky little herders with tons of drive and energy. If you don't give them a job, they will invent one. They are hardy, so they are perfectly fine with living outside and not being attached to a human at the hip. I personally prefer the females over the males. And they will kill things. Chickens, rats, snakes, rabbits, squirrels, pea fowl, etc. Whatever they can catch. I kinda think heeler folks live in their own little bubble too.
 

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Kate
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On the blue heeler subject, I grew up with these dogs, and I wouldn't compare them to Rottweilers........................................ Temperament wise, they are cocky little herders with tons of drive and energy. If you don't give them a job, they will invent one. They are hardy, so they are perfectly fine with living outside and not being attached to a human at the hip. I personally prefer the females over the males. And they will kill things. Chickens, rats, snakes, rabbits, squirrels, pea fowl, etc. Whatever they can catch. I kinda think heeler folks live in their own little bubble too.
Weird thing is my stylist said that the heelers are more mellow than aussies and border collies which they've also had. She said that she's had her border collie become obsessive with hunting for mice in the house and digging up moles, but the heelers don't care. These dogs are house dogs - not outside dogs.

My impression has been more along what you describe. I think ages ago I watched a Denise Fenzi video where she was training one - and wild animal LOL.
 

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The way amber searches when we walk her I'd say we are living with a vacuum. Maybe I should change her name to hoover. 😃
 

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Kate
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This is interesting to me cause I either don't see it or am not understanding what you mean. What political jockeying? I know there are politics that revolve around dog sports (be it conformation or performance sports) that involve handlers and alleged favoritism. But are there other examples? Are we circling back to "this is a good breeder, but this one isn't a good breeder"?
It IS the whole splitting hairs thing over what makes a good breeder. It's people reciting rules on how to write letters to breeders. It's people memorizing lines on what to say or not to say to a breeder. It's everything that piles up over time lately. I feel like crap to see so many people who want dogs because among else, their homes are empty because they lost a dog and they are struggling to find a breeder that will sell them a nice healthy pup.
 

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I totally get you
I had family come in from out of town with their designed mutt rat dog . I just didn’t say anything because I feel like that conversation is an iceberg that requires a lot of patients. While at the same time your navigating the other persons feelings and the fact they already have the dog too. Idk
Everyone is living their own life and someone's opinion is not going to change overnight. I just hope that what I said can be a seed in their mind. Maybe one day they hear another person talking about the same thing and they will be more interested in looking into it and think more about it.
 

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Are we as a community actually different from other breed communities? I genuinely have no clue because I'm not part of them. I know my friends with labs who I train with, who show and hunt and track, all talk about the DNA and OFA testing and such that is required, but I don't know if they are involved in educating puppy buyers. Maybe they are having the same conversations on their forums about puppies and demand as we are? Maybe the same with other popular breeds right now, too. I know that Goldens are not the most popular breed in my neighbourhood (sadly, it would likely be doodles). As for real breeds, it's probably French bulldogs. My guess is there must be a community of French bulldog breeders who are passionate about the breed as we are. But this is all guesses on my part.
 
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I've hear the phrase that a dog is part of the family before, but never so many times as on here. I think that has a big part of this conversation. Lots of people won't or can't see it that way. I have had several dogs pass and was nowhere near as devastated as losing the people in my life. A dog is an animal, some people breed and care for some of their food I think it keeps them from accepting animals into their family. When your life is to complicated to allow yourself to expand your family you can still receive emotional satisfaction from a dog, or a puppy at least, and not allow it into your family. Those people will have a harder time worrying about the health of a breed.

As an aside, I must say I am kind of flabbergasted by the concept of a $450.00 baseball bat for a child. I'm not being critical, if you have the means to support that lifestyle then congratulations, it is just taking me a minute to wrap my head around it. I spend a lot of money on my hobbies, I just remember paying a couple bucks for a bat to play ball.

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