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Riot's mom
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I thought this was important enough to get its own thread, aside from the discussion in the weekly training. Also, it's self-serving, considering that I am in the middle of dealing with all of these.

Let's take Riot. We are just starting the T. We don't have any side piles yet, just lining to the main pile. We haven't even started adding in the whistle stop yet. So we go out to train, he has already ran this for a few training sessions, so he knows where the pile is. After running a few, we get a no-go. He stares at me like he has no idea what I'm talking about. How do I correct? He has been doing this on sends from the side and sends from the front. Is it pinch to the pile? I have tried here*nick*here and then resent, but I often get another no-go. Then what? I guess I'm just looking for options, because I know that a lot of it is going to be reading the dog.

Also, if people are having no-goes at other stages of transition, feel free to jump in :)
 

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On a send from the side, Dan would do a heel-nick-heel and then re-send him. He says you need to make a "motion" correction if the dog is refusing to move. On a no-go from the front, how far away from him are you when this is happening?
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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You could try heel nick heel, then send.

You've reached the point where things start to break down for some dogs if prior basic lessons were not really understood. (Doing it because he wants to, not because you said so.)
You may need to revisit FTP to make sure that lesson was thoroughly understood and that there is no confusion about expectations. Sometimes you have to go all the way back to the beginning of fetch to clear up the confusion if the lessons weren't grasped.
 

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NO Go's I walk about 6-10ft in front of the dog while he is sitting after a no go and Heel Burn Heel then send. Clears it up pretty quickly. Just my .02
 

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Riot's mom
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Discussion Starter #5
You could try heel nick heel, then send.

You've reached the point where things start to break down for some dogs if prior basic lessons were not really understood. (Doing it because he wants to, not because you said so.)
You may need to revisit FTP to make sure that lesson was thoroughly understood and that there is no confusion about expectations. Sometimes you have to go all the way back to the beginning of fetch to clear up the confusion if the lessons weren't grasped.
Yeah... I feel like that might be what has been happening. I've revisited FTP a few times now and it has seemed to help.

For sending from a front position, I am usually just a few feet in front of him. I've tried stepping into him to get him moving. Any other ideas?
 

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I am curious as to what you think causes the "no go".
This question interests me too.

I have some issues with Gabby on "no goes". Darrin too says to walk her up a bit and re-send. Not so much a here-nick-here, but he may mean that and I am just too new brain literal to understand that. :p: It showed up on Gabby working on the whistles sits. She NAILS those, and I am trying really hard to not sit her near the pile, not to put pressure on the pile yet as she is still green. The last time I worked her I made the decision I need to go back and re-confirm the FTP. If I give the "back" command with a nick, she is right out there. If I don't, she is not going out. I thought at first she was not understanding me with the whistle in my mouth. Perhaps that is a small piece of this puzzle, so when I re-address FTP I plan to put the whistle in my mouth.

I also wonder if distance is part of it. Again FTP should help that. I need a bit more distance doing whistle sits (we have added one side pile so far) so I can stop her and try to avoid pile pressure.

My plan is to back up the straight pile work, at first no side piles, and work on increasing the distance again, and really making sure she understands when I say "back" she responds with "how fast".
 

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the party's crashing us
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Well it is tricky to give advice without seeing it in person, as there could be some extenuating circumstance causing the no-go through no fault of the dog's. You never know, some people especially new handlers learning as they go do some weird body movements, commands, etc that are confusing to the dog.

However what others have said is SOP for no-goes. Heel-burn-heel from the side, tells the dog it is NOT SAFE to sit here and NOT go. You are much safer out there. The problem is especially in initial pile work you will get a dog who is afraid to go "out there" because they've received force en route away from mommy, so they think that is not safe, well it can be a real gut-check to correct at your side enough to get them to overcome that and do it. But I think every dog has to have this to really get the message through.

Can you get a video?
 
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I am curious as to what you think causes the "no go".
Dog doesn't understand that retrieving is now not an option and is a command to obeyed. That is why FF and FP are important and holes in either will show up. You instill in the pup at a young age that retrieving is a fun game but if you want to compete at higher levels it is becomes a requirement not and option.
Also lack of confidence in success. Too much pressure or too little and not consistent in training. My .02
 
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Riot's mom
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Discussion Starter #11
I am curious as to what you think causes the "no go".
Good question. For a while, it was because I was being not smart and holding the "discard bumpers" in my hand instead of actually discarding them. Then, when I started to discard, he was still very focused on them so I worked hard on "leave it". Now I think, after today's session, that it was due to too little pressure. Here's why.

I did a few FTP, then backed up to half way, then full distance. The first 2 sends were good. The third (from my side), I said "dead bird" and I could see him still looking up at me. Said dead bird again, no head drop, so I knew he wasn't going to go. So I got ready for a burn (3 high instead of 3 low), and gave him a BACK. No movement. *Burn* BACK and he went "Oh Sh**" and flew out of there. This told me two things. 1. He knows how to correctly respond to the pressure and 2. He needs more pressure than I had been applying, at least for now. I think he wasn't going because he didn't want to and didn't know he HAD to.

I had one other no-go, maybe two sends after that, with him in the front position (he was testing the "generalization" of the pressure I think). BACK...burn BACK and he turned and ran. After that, I put 4 bumpers out, he ran 4 perfectly from all different positions, and then we quit.

Obviously, we will have to wait and see what happens tomorrow. I'll let you all know...

Anney, I wish I had a video camera. I'm thinking I might sell a few things to try to get at least a little Flipvideo. I also really wish I had time to get down to the Dahls, but I'me working two 12 hr shifts the next two weekends. Spring break seems so far away!
 

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the party's crashing us
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Marie it sounded like you handled it PERFECT and I do mean perfect!!
Just substitute the word "SIT" for "dead bird" and you've got it. It will take several sessions before he really connects the dots so keep at it.
 
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Dog doesn't understand that retrieving is now not an option and is a command to obeyed. That is why FF and FP are important and holes in either will show up. You instill in the pup at a young age that retrieving is a fun game but if you want to compete at higher levels it is becomes a requirement not and option.
Also lack of confidence in success. Too much pressure or too little and not consistent in training. My .02
OK, that's what I thought might be the answer. However, I have seen a dog that is a retrieving fool (never tires from retrieving, has the highest prey drive in my training group) suddenly produce a no go. I actually thought that the dog looked confused. When the handler changed her tone, her dog then did the retrieve. I actually had the thought that somehow there really was confusion on the part of the dog. Just a thought.
 

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I thought this was important enough to get its own thread, aside from the discussion in the weekly training. Also, it's self-serving, considering that I am in the middle of dealing with all of these.

Let's take Riot. We are just starting the T.

Also, if people are having no-goes at other stages of transition, feel free to jump in :)
So, to get to this point, did you ear pinch, stick fetch, Walking Fetch, and force to pile? What you do about no-goes is dependent upon what tools you have on board. Be reluctant to just "try" this or that, especially with an e-collar. Experimenting is not fair to the dog, and may do more harm than good.

EvanG
 
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Riot's mom
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Discussion Starter #15
So, to get to this point, did you ear pinch, stick fetch, Walking Fetch, and force to pile? What you do about no-goes is dependent upon what tools you have on board. Be reluctant to just "try" this or that, especially with an e-collar. Experimenting is not fair to the dog, and may do more harm than good.
Yes, I sure did do all of those. I also went back to FTP after having trouble so that I could make sure I was being clear on what I wanted. Adding pressure with the e-collar was the last thing I tried. I'm not experimenting, I'm trying to figure out what works. Isn't that how you problem solve?
 

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Yes, I sure did do all of those..... I'm not experimenting, I'm trying to figure out what works. Isn't that how you problem solve?
Yes it is. Someone had posted that you could, "You could try heel nick heel, then send." I'm not second guessing you on this, but rather simply issuing a caution. That's a good treatment, provided you know about the dog, so I asked what tools you had before offering a suggestion.

How did it go when you went back to FTP? Did you go through a full set of forcing; from your side, en route, and on "Back"?

EvanG
 
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