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Does a Ridgeback need to hunt lion to prove themselves? Do Dals have to find a carriage to prove themselves? There are breeds with an original purpose that doesn’t really exist in our current world. Does that mean they don’t meet their standard?

I have no desire to kill ducks for a hobby. I have no desire to get my dogs bit by a Gila Monster or Rattle Snake, very real concerns in my state.
Very salient and true points. Elkhounds can no longer by law do their job, but the breed standard provides a blueprint for what their particular foot must be like based on their original job. And I am not going to shock my dog for any reason even if it is called by the euphemism "stim" or have 18 dead ducks in my freezer next to the ice cream. I will cheer for all the great hunting dogs and admire them; you should cheer for all the great show dogs We will all send props and real admiration to Anney and Barb who do it all.
 
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Kate
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If field people want more conformation people to get into the sport....

Could they please start teaching classes at training clubs??? Even if the trainer takes people on road trips during the session, there's a level of comfort that comes with showing up at the training club to start with and knowing that you are learning with people at the same level.

Especially for puppy level field training - because I get that while the pups are little, that's the most ideal time to get them going on training foundation stuff.

And get people in there with a diverse tool box. Teach me to train my dog for field WITHOUT a zap collar.

If there currently isn't a way to really get the dogs good without a zap collar - figure one out for people like me.

I'm used to being in obedience where there are 10 million different ways to teach your dogs how to do any exercise. And whether you are positive only or old school or somewhere degree in the middle, there's ways of doing stuff and training people how to train their dogs.

Please??????

It's all in the teach me to teach my puppy view that I have - and truly, I do want to get a JH on my next pup down the road. But it's a very difficult goal to work on when field work is completely SEPARATE from where people regularly train. All the more so when I don't know the teachers or what they do and when I ask around, I'm basically told to come out and watch and throw birds around are weird-gross stuff like that. :laugh:

And then by the time people have adult dogs - they might feel more "Weird" about jumping back into field training because their dogs are set in their ways and people enjoy finding ways to poke fun of other people's dogs and put them down.

If you have classes where everyone is at the same level and you don't have a chance of working with or around people who are very high level training getting impatient with you and your dog for not having a clue... it might be easier for some people to get into the sport.

And no, I can't learn by reading books or watching videos. And forget about online classes. I get more excited and learn better in person, working my own dog.

Ages ago when I first started out in obedience training - the one chick teaching classes had a field/hunting class. It was basic level training so pretty easy. But I really loved those classes. We did a few rounds with my golden back then. He was way better than all the hunting labs and GSP's that were in the same class - primarily because he was not running through walls when fetching and he was steady and paid attention to what was going on and listened to me.
 

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And of course requiring the MH to earn at least one 3 point major on the flip side
I apologize if you were being sarcastic, but I don't see how a WC can be compared to in any way to a 3 point major.

Personally, I don't think any single title is indicative of good breed representation. Titles indicate that you've done reasonably well in your venue of choice. I think we oughta change the CH title to something like CCH (conformation champion) because there is no distinction (champion of what? certainly not an overall champion), unlike AFC/FC/OTCH/MACH/CT etc. So it just *sounds* like a CH should be an overall well-rounded representative of the breed, although we know that is certainly not always the case. The OP's question, in my opinion, is a matter of semantics. No one would expect a field requirement if the title in question were a CCH. Just like no one would expect an aspiring MH or FC to earn a 3 point major to complete the title...:uhoh: Conformation Champion means just that. Master Hunter means just that.
 

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i don't think a WC is needed to be a CH.
I think breeding with an eye to temperament and longevity is important. The rest.....pick your type/venue and go have fun. Life is better with a Golden.
 

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Discussion Starter #85
That is far from true . What is a 90 degree angle- how far off from that? Level, Scissor bite, what percentage of the leg does the hock take up, how many fingers long is the loin. Many judges know what they are doing, and are fine lifelong students of dogs. What is more subjective here is the poster's option of conformation judges and breeders. As Pat Trotter says, the judge with the badge judges that day, but the breeder judges every time they select parents of a litter, and that is in the gene pool forever. Even with that contempt for a dog's conformation and for conforming to the breed standard, you are still the judge if you breed.
No showing is 100% the opinion of he judge, they have a road map but they get to make the final pic. Yes i have been only to one show so my experience is very limited but i stayed the whole day and asked questions that might have seemed dumb but everyone answered them like they here not, but from my newbie point of view showing your dog is solely based on what the judge likes or doesn't like.
 

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Discussion Starter #86
The OP's question, in my opinion, is a matter of semantics. No one would expect a field requirement if the title in question were a CCH. Just like no one would expect an aspiring MH or FC to earn a 3 point major to complete the title...:uhoh: Conformation Champion means just that. Master Hunter means just that.
No it wasnt, it was made because of two reason first i wanted to see others peoples thoughts and second i asked it because it is a good question to be asked.
 

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the party's crashing us
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And I am not going to...have 18 dead ducks in my freezer next to the ice cream.
No man if you want to do it right you get a second freezer for your ducks!!!!!!
 

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No it wasnt, it was made because of two reason first i wanted to see others peoples thoughts and second i asked it because it is a good question to be asked.
Oops, sorry, the thread got off track so I had forgotten your original question and I guess I made up something else in my head. Sorry! You’re right. A field requirement for a CH was brought up later on.
 

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Oops, sorry, the thread got off track so I had forgotten your original question and I guess I made up something else in my head. Sorry! You’re right. A field requirement for a CH was brought up later on.
lol it's ok
 

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This is a guess not backed up by facts, I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'm guessing the conformation championship was the first one recorded by AKC, hence it's the CH. The ones that came later needed an additional letter or letters to differentiate them.
BTW, if they did change the title, it would more correctly be BCH, as the true designation is "bench champion".
But since the AKC loves to make up new titles or certificates to keep the money rolling in, how about different levels of bench championship titles based on performance achievements, similar to the VCD titles?

I apologize if you were being sarcastic, but I don't see how a WC can be compared to in any way to a 3 point major.

Personally, I don't think any single title is indicative of good breed representation. Titles indicate that you've done reasonably well in your venue of choice. I think we oughta change the CH title to something like CCH (conformation champion) because there is no distinction (champion of what? certainly not an overall champion), unlike AFC/FC/OTCH/MACH/CT etc. So it just *sounds* like a CH should be an overall well-rounded representative of the breed, although we know that is certainly not always the case. The OP's question, in my opinion, is a matter of semantics. No one would expect a field requirement if the title in question were a CCH. Just like no one would expect an aspiring MH or FC to earn a 3 point major to complete the title...:uhoh: Conformation Champion means just that. Master Hunter means just that.
 

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No showing is 100% the opinion of he judge, they have a road map but they get to make the final pic. Yes i have been only to one show so my experience is very limited but i stayed the whole day and asked questions that might have seemed dumb but everyone answered them like they here not, but from my newbie point of view showing your dog is solely based on what the judge likes or doesn't like.
Well, Malcolm Gladwell suggests ten thousand hours to get really good at something. Seems like you put in your first 7 understanding a sport and culture new to you.
 

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Discussion Starter #92
Well, Malcolm Gladwell suggests ten thousand hours to get really good at something. Seems like you put in your first 7 understanding a sport and culture new to you.
so you think it isn't ? And you feel it takes 10,000 hrs to understand it.
 

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Many dog men and women have been students of the breed for 40, 50 years and are second or third generations in dogs. It takes a long apprenticeship , an attitude of lifelong learning, several mentors, and a whole lot of experiential time before making pronouncements or generalizations - even if even then. Learning what is true for yourself, and then working on to thine own dogs be true, takes years and years.
 

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Be careful what opinions you form at dog shows. You will get widely diverse comments on the judges, and on judging in general, depending on how the person's dog placed (or didn't). I've seen this in all dog sports, but more in conformation than anywhere else.
The same argument, btw, can be made at the higher levels of other competitive sports such as obedience and field trials where the judges compare dogs, that it's subjective. Some obedience judges are really fussy about straight fronts, some about heeling position, some about perfect finishes, and so on, just as an example.
 

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Discussion Starter #96
O I know I have a lot to learn a whole lot to learn. What I was saying is judging is subjective, the judges get a roadmap but THEY make the final decision that by definition is subjective.
 

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I get what you're saying, I just wanted to point out that it's very subjective in the higher levels of other sports as well. Field trials? One judge may consider a performance "lining the blind" and place the dog very high, while another may consider it "lack of showing control" and fail the dog. One judge may say you "challenged the blind" while another may say you blew the whistle too many times. That's just one cheesy example. Same is true in tracking, one judge may consider it "guiding the dog" while another may consider it being a good team member.
And so on.


O I know I have a lot to learn a whole lot to learn. What I was saying is judging is subjective, the judges get a roadmap but THEY make the final decision that by definition is subjective.
 
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And of course requiring the MH to earn at least one 3 point major on the flip side
I didn't say anything about tests requiring "Trained" abilities such as those required for a MH or *** which are very demanding. A WC is designed to test natural "Inborn Traits". Asking that a dog demonstrate that it will go out, pick up a bird, and bring it back to someplace close to the handler, isn't that hard from a teaching or training standpoint. That is, it isn't IF your dog has correct temperament and personality for the breed. Most well bred puppies will be able to do most of the work required of a WC Test at 10 to 12 weeks of age. So these are issues you could have looked at and answered long before your pup was ever allowed set foot in the Conformation Ring.
The breeds stated "purpose" is a hunting dog. The BOD of the GRCA has long since and on more than one occasion made a point that "Hunting Dog" is the Purpose of the breed. (Your argument about grammar is utter, complete nonsense.) Therefore fitness for the stated purpose in the Breed Standard should be answered prior to awarding a Conformation Championship just like other breeds like Tollers and Labradors have done for years.

A lot of the owners of CH dogs will look at requiring a test of natural inborn traits or abilities in a dog and see absolutely no problem because they already know without a doubt their dog demonstrates those qualities in spades.

Then their will be those with CH dogs that dig their heels in and oppose such tests because such an examination will easily expose incorrect personality and temperament in their dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter #100
"A WC is designed to test natural "Inborn Traits". Asking that a dog demonstrate that it will go out, pick up a . That is, it isn't IF your dog has correct temperament and personality for the breed. Most well bred puppies will be able to do most of the work required of a WC Test at 10 to 12 weeks of age."


I would love to see if this would work. The puppy I am getting I am confident could do this but I actually want to see it.
 
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