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For the record, the poodles I have seen in the field and not suitable for my pheasant hunting or my duck hunting. My hunting requires extremely athletic dogs with extremely high drive and and insane love for water
 

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This is Eng. CH. Noranby Campfire, he is the first golden champion. The other pic is a current champion, you can see the difference in everything from the coat to the overall size and build.
I am curious do you believe that the breeders of Noranby Camfite at the he was born, just 3 years after they were first shown as flat coats (Golden), considered this dog to be the template by which all future Goldens should be judged?

Are there differences? Of course! I for one lament the amount of coat we are seeing in the ring.

I think a lot of what you see a drastic differences though has more to do with hair (I agree with you there is too much), grooming, presentation and the development of breed type. Remember the standard is a written template there are bound to be variations in interpretation. That is actually a good thing for the breed.
 

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Yes that fur is kind of what I’ve been thinking about as far as getting the job done. I have heard so many people say the dogs need a lot of coat to keep them warm while hunting in the winter And swimming. Yet I see field Golden’s with less coat do just fine while I see heavy coated dogs struggle to pull themselves out of the water while lugging all that heavy water logged coat with them. Glad to hear there are breeders that try to stay away from that.
 

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Here's an interesting point.

It seems that a field golden can do the work despite lacking the so called structure that conformation golden breeders inset they need to function in the field. Why do you think that is?
That to me is an easy question to answer. First and formost because a dog with Drive will do the job even it it hurts or kills them. I have seen my Min Pin do just that. Min Pins have serious vermin hunting blood behind them. He just about killed himself several times and caused permanent damage to his body. He was extremely incorrect and though his instincts said yes his body paid the price especially as he aged.

Second generic hunting dogs do great jobs, however generic is not Golden. The standard is a blueprint or template first started by expert dog people and usually horse people. What is in there is designed to build a Golden not a generic hunting dog. The things they included are designed to make a Golden able to do his original job well, easily and ultimately as pain free as possible.

If generic hunting dog is all it took to be any sporting breed, all the standards would be identical. But instead the breed founders wanted different things in their partners.
 

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Question is though, if you wanted extremely athletic and extremely high drive.... why get a golden retriever when there are other breeds out there who are show bred, breed standard, and have all of that to offer in addition to being extremely athletic and extremely high drive?

That's about the same amount of concerning as people who want newfie heads and collie coats on show goldens.

Many of us are into golden retrievers to begin with because other retriever breeds and pointing retriever breeds too are too much dog for most people who aren't living outside or something. :D
Your post suggests that Goldens should not be extremely athletic and extremely high drive. That is the root of the problem. The dog is supposed to be a hunting dog. My needs are for the athlete. I am a hunter. I hunt my dog five hours or more at a time. Why should I use a retriever breed with an inferior nose?
 

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Gosh why do people always act like Field Golden’s are bouncing off the all all the time. They have such great off switches at home. Shoot should they not be high drive in the field or is that also considered too much dog as well? I have a family and kids and no land to speak of. I couldn’t handle a dog that was bouncing off the walls.

I do fear that the natural drive and desire of the Golden is being bred out of them so they won’t be too much dog for some people. And since hunting and field is my venue and it is what the dog is supposed to do this scares me for the breed.

I’m not as king for show people to stop showing. I could care less if that’s what you like to do. But I do worry about the breed with some of these tweaks that evolve over time due to subjective judges in the ring that ultimately determine the future generations of golden retrievers. Think about the fur. A couple judges choose overly heavy coats and then breeders start breeding for more coat. Well this truly is detrimental to the dog as an outdoor athletic lifestyle hunting.
 

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A couple judges choose overly heavy coats and then breeders start breeding for more coat. Well this truly is detrimental to the dog as an outdoor athletic lifestyle hunting.
Are you sure that’s how that happened?

I have heard a different story driven more by a breeder or breeders determined to remake the breed.

I have no idea which is true. Unless there is evidence, I don’t know that we can say either way.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
A couple judges choose overly heavy coats and then breeders start breeding for more coat. Well this truly is detrimental to the dog as an outdoor athletic lifestyle hunting.
Are you sure that’s how that happened?

I have heard a different story driven more by a breeder or breeders determined to remake the breed.

I have no idea which is true. Unless there is evidence, I don’t know that we can say either way.
From my reading the coat separation happened around 1910s. Color is another big change that happen around that time.
 

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Jeeze where have I been all day on this thread?!

Nate - I appreciate your independent thought on this topic.
Look at the pictures of goldens from WAY BEFORE Noramby Campfire, the original Magoffin dogs, they are much more moderate and bigger dogs.
Campfire was only 10 months old in that photo -- a lanky teenager.

Goldens were not recognized by the AKC for another 22 years --- the "separation" started during the late 70s & early 80s
The breed's last Dual Champion was in the early 70s

What drove the separation? Too many breeders focusing on one area of competition and those venues becoming exponentially more competitive. The extremes won. The moderates got left in the dust. Same reason they keep moving back the 3 point line in basketball. Kids get better, the old game isn't a challenge anymore.

I strongly, strongly am against requiring any title to validate another title in another venue. What happens when you "require" a hunting title to validate a breed CH? Well the hunting title requirement gets dumbed down so hard, it's no longer a challenge to pass it. If it's not a challenge, why bother. What is it proving.

Here's the other issue. A piece of paper stating a dog holds "X" title means NOTHING. It means he met the statistical requirements of the title.
A CH certificate doesn't tell you how good of a front the dog has, is he balanced, does he have slipped hocks, is he too long in back, does he track wide. Nope. It tells you he got 15 points and two majors. How did he get 15 points and two majors? Was he shown sparingly to breeder judges by his amateur owner? Did he finish from the puppy classes? Did he finish after his owner dragged him to 300 shows? Did he finish after being on 5 different pro handlers trucks for 4 years?

Same for any performance venue. I know a BIG NAME show Champion golden who took nearly 40 tries to finish his JUNIOR HUNTER.
I know a GRAND CHAMPION show golden who took a staggering FIFTY-SIX TRIES to earn a Master Hunter. It has the same elusive "Dual Dog Hall of Fame" notoriety as my GRAND CHAMPION show golden who took a tidy SIX TRIES to earn his Master Hunter. Same titles. Very different stories.

A dog is measured in the eye of the beholder. Titles tell you nothing. Go see him and judge for yourself. Stay critical.
 

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I have one of both, a small field golden (she's only 47lbs, super petite, and very light on coat) and a show golden with lots of bone and too much hair (as in I will never take him pheasant hunting because the amount of burrs he would attract is frightening to think about). I frequently say that my perfect dog would be a mixture of them both. The conformation and temperament of my show line, the drive, energy, and smarts of my field line, with a coat somewhere in between. But I don't think requiring certain titles to achieve other titles is the answer to that though, its supporting those breeders that do strive for the all-around dog, which is what I will do with my next golden! That and when you get your dog Nate, make an effort to show that your dog can do it all.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
I oldest dog I've seen was Nous but he isn't a true golden retriever. Culham is the one that has the best poise to compare with. When you say the 70s you are speaking 1970s correct? AKC took longer then the English kennel to recognize the breed and the article i believe was talking about the coat and color separation within the English kennel. I got your take on it Prisms and a ton others the post would be complete if Marcia Schlehr posted her thoughts. LOL.
Btw k9-design I will be getting a boy golden soon and will be using Fisher as a model, I got my work cut out.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
I have one of both, a small field golden (she's only 47lbs, super petite, and very light on coat) and a show golden with lots of bone and too much hair (as in I will never take him pheasant hunting because the amount of burrs he would attract is frightening to think about). I frequently say that my perfect dog would be a mixture of them both. The conformation and temperament of my show line, the drive, energy, and smarts of my field line, with a coat somewhere in between. But I don't think requiring certain titles to achieve other titles is the answer to that though, its supporting those breeders that do strive for the all-around dog, which is what I will do with my next golden! That and when you get your dog Nate, make an effort to show that your dog can do it all.
O I have ever intention to try to dabble in everything, like I told k9 I am using her boy Fisher as a model.
 

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Jamie
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O I have ever intention to try to dabble in everything, like I told k9 I am using her boy Fisher as a model.
Hah, she doesn't know it, but her boy Fisher is my model as well :) Which is funny, because my boy's name actually is Fisher (named before I knew about him).
 

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Yes 1970s I thought you were implying a split between show and field not English vs. American

Use Bally as a model, he's a better dog...;)
But I appreciate the sentiment!
OK Fisher was THE BEST ;)

my best advice -- if you want to compete and earn high level titles in multiple venues....choose pedigrees with dogs competing and earning high level titles in multiple venues -- oh! and be a good dog trainer (the hardest part!)

Best of luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #60
No the article was talking about coat and color separation during the 1910s so I assumed they where talking about the English kennel.
I almost got a bally boy but there was a mix up with the breeder so it didn't happen. The line of the boy im getting looks good.
 
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