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Discussion Starter #1
Who else feels that it would make sense for a dog breed to be a hunt dog to have a hunt title on it before it can be considered a champion, which means it meet breed standards?
 

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The GRF has changed a bit but you used to be able to get people here really going with a comment like this.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Personally I feel if a dog was breed for a given job then in order to be call a breed standard it should due what was breed for. Hunt title, tracking title and good conformation (don't want to breed defects into the gene pool)
 

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Kate
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By that same token should they have to earn a Championship to get credit for hunt titles?
To prove that they are breed standard, of course... :nerd:

What I understand the OP is asking is that GRCA would not recognize CH titles unless the dogs prove that they are hunting dogs by a minimal field title (IE, JH).

This would not affect most of the people who just send the dogs out to live most of their young adult lives with handlers. The same people would not have a problem sending the dogs out for serious crunch time training with a field person (types of people who have ten million dogs on their truck) and getting a title put on them, over and done.

This would affect the people who value their dogs, keep them close to home, and are not sending them out to live with and be trained by somebody sight unseen.

Biggest concern for somebody like me is the mistreatment of dogs at some places. You have that in conformation, including a tragedy that occurred 2 years ago that send really big shock waves through the show rings locally, because it was a very popular handler and a lot of goldens died.

But there are similar stories in field with dogs being mistreated or handled roughly.

And you add another layer of concern when you have people who do not believe there is a fits all way of training dogs. Lot of us do not believe that all dogs should get handled the same way or put aside when they cannot handle that type of training method.

Go into obedience where you get more spillover from conformation, and there are a myriad of ways of training everything.

Re the field thing - the way to avoid the concern about rough handling with the dogs would be owner handling the dogs to JH titles. Which is doable but can be tricky when you have a full time job and tight budget. Those 2 things mean you pick and choose the areas where you want to focus on.
 

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Wasn't that why the WC was created? There are some breeds that still stress working ability. It's a bit redundant anymore. With enough time and training most dogs could pass a WC or JH. The owner just has to spend the time and money. In fact I've seen a CH golden that was on a Pros truck for forever. If I remember correctly from when I looked up the dogs, it took over 10 tests to earn a JH title.
 

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No. I do not agree with that at all. Conformation is strictly about the structure and movement of a dog and has nothing to do with the dog's ability to retrieve birds. Not all Goldens are cut out for hunting. Field work and conformation are like apples and oranges and have nothing to do with one another. In fact, many field Goldens are bred to have an entirely different structure than conformation lines. Personally, I have absolutely no interest in hunting/field work and only have a vested interest in conformation. If you are interested in doing both field work as well as showing in conformation, then more power to you and you should absolutely pursue both if you have that kind of multipurpose dog, but having a hunting title should absolutely not be a requirement in order for a dog to be successful in the show ring and become titled.
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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It depends upon the breed and country. At this time it is required in some lands earn a Field certificate or title for a CH to be awarded. So the concept isn't so far fetched.

Requiring a dog to earn a WC prior to being awarded a CH isn't too much to ask IMHDAO.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
"What I understand the OP is asking is that GRCA would not recognize CH titles unless the dogs prove that they are hunting dogs by a minimal field title (IE, JH)." Excatly what i was getting to. I would even say that towards border collies as well. They where breed to herd so in order to get a champion title they should get a herd title. In Germany German shepherds need have to complete three test before they can be breed. Just a thought to better the breed.
 

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The GRF has changed a bit but you used to be able to get people here really going with a comment like this.
Soooooooo true! :bowl:
 

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I never hunted my dogs but Fiona was a master at finding vole's and turtles ;)

Regardless I believe all of my Goldens could have swam through icy waters and sit all day in a blind then afterward run zigzags through imaginary agility poles.

They don't need a hunt title to be Golden. They are capable of being anything you want them to be.
 

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Kate
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"What I understand the OP is asking is that GRCA would not recognize CH titles unless the dogs prove that they are hunting dogs by a minimal field title (IE, JH)." Excatly what i was getting to. I would even say that towards border collies as well. They where breed to herd so in order to get a champion title they should get a herd title. In Germany German shepherds need have to complete three test before they can be breed. Just a thought to better the breed.
The problem you start out with is people saying you can't bring them to the table to discuss forcing them to do something to prove the dogs are "breed standard", when the other side is not put to the same rigors to compete in two completely different sports.

Meaning, you have the old guys who just roll out to do field work with their dogs are putting 100% of their focus on field work with their dogs. They are not putting too much rigor or test into making sure they only breed dogs who could go from field into the show ring without people asking what breed they are.

Flip side of that is you have conformation people who are chasing CH titles and showing every weekend during the year. And when they aren't doing that, they have other things they do. Majority of people I know are breeders and are raising litters when not showing. And they work full time as well.

What you suggest is going to these people and telling them they need to put a very minimal effort into a sloppy quick fix field title. And that is what you get when you have dogs going out there 10 times or whatever to get a title.... as opposed to those dogs who have dedicated trainers raising them and putting a lot of time into training them.

You have this in other breeds already. And it is not raising the level of excellence in those breed by any means.

You have people like a specific person of a different breed whose main focus in funding their dogs conformation careers (including maintaining a top spot in the breed by showing all the time). And they have decided that they want obedience and field titles on these dogs as well. So a 3 year old is put through boot camp in two different sports to hopeful title in both in the same year so the breed can charge more stud fees and put extra on the advertising.

My friend who specifically took back the 3 year old mentioned above to cram a JH and a CD on this dog before the summer was over laughed about going into the obedience ring with a paper bag on her head because the dog did not have the amount of training and proving time put in before competing. The owner did not care if the scores were all in the 170's. They just wanted the CD.

I don't know specifics about the JH, but I do know for a fact that the owner sent the dog home to the breeder to be trained 3 WEEKS before a weekend of trials the dog was entered in.

The dog got his CD with only 3 weeks worth of really focused training.

Which was doable, but very ugly.

Along the same lines, there's a big name breeder who got her start in both conformation and obedience. And the little known fact is that she would cram obedience titles to get them done. Scores would be low and performances very ugly, but 30+ years later, we all just see the titles on the dogs.

She ended up switching gears and focusing only on obedience. And it was at that point that the level of performance improved drastically. Because she was putting 100% into it.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
A golden was breed to be a hunting dog not a show dog. wouldn't you agree that if a dog is breed to do a given job it should able to do that job? BTW i am not saying because a golden cant get a hunt title it is a bad golden far from it what i am saying is for a good breed stock would it not make sense for the dog to have title that reflect its breed propose?
 

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No. I do not agree with that at all. Conformation is strictly about the structure and movement of a dog and has nothing to do with the dog's ability to retrieve birds. Not all Goldens are cut out for hunting. Field work and conformation are like apples and oranges and have nothing to do with one another. In fact, many field Goldens are bred to have an entirely different structure than conformation lines. Personally, I have absolutely no interest in hunting/field work and only have a vested interest in conformation. If you are interested in doing both field work as well as showing in conformation, then more power to you and you should absolutely pursue both if you have that kind of multipurpose dog, but having a hunting title should absolutely not be a requirement in order for a dog to be successful in the show ring and become titled.
The written AKC Golden Retriever Standard states they are primarily hunting dogs, conformation dogs should meet the standard, that's the whole point. A conformation dog should be able to retrieve birds.

General Appearance — a symmetrical, powerful, active dog, sound and well put together, not clumsy nor long in the leg, displaying a kindly expression and possessing a personality that is eager, alert and self-confident. Primarily a hunting dog, he should be shown in hard working condition. Over-all appearance, balance, gait and purpose to be given more emphasis than any of his component parts.
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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Wasn't that why the WC was created? There are some breeds that still stress working ability. It's a bit redundant anymore. With enough time and training most dogs could pass a WC or JH. The owner just has to spend the time and money. In fact I've seen a CH golden that was on a Pros truck for forever. If I remember correctly from when I looked up the dogs, it took over 10 tests to earn a JH title.
The GRCA WC is a test to assess the basic "Raw Talent" the dog comes with. There really isn't much trained ability required. From a trainability standpoint the WC is easier than an AKC JH where delivery to hand is a requirement.

The Breed Standard states the golden retriever is supposed to be a hunting dog. A Conformation Championship is supposed to be awarded to dogs that demonstrate "bred in" superior conformance to the Breed Standard. It kind of weakens the meaning and value of a CH Title when one is awarded without testing or demonstrating conformance to a portion of the Breed Standard.


Yes, I have seen/judged numerous CH dogs trying to earn a JH. Sometimes be a Golden Retriever fan can be painful to watch.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
The way I read it yes. If you look way back in the golden history all the dogs where smaller and slimmer then now, they also tended to be dark as well. Culham Brass is a good example of this.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
The Breed Standard states the golden retriever is supposed to be a hunting dog. A Conformation Championship is supposed to be awarded to dogs that demonstrate "bred in" superior conformance to the Breed Standard. It kind of weakens the meaning and value of a CH Title when one is awarded without testing or demonstrating conformance to a portion of the Breed Standard.
I agree. BTW i learned today what a swampcollie is LOL
 
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