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Hello all! just got our golden puppy today! The breeder gave us a calcium tablet supplement by nutrivet as well as a paste, they said to give the paste twice a day and a tablet once a day, this is healthy and normal right? i want a second opinion
 

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I would not do that. If you're feeding a quality large breed puppy food (for controlled growth) you will have a food with a calcium to phosphorus ratio of either 1.1:1 up to 1.4:1. Phosphorus inhibits calcium absorption so a regular puppy food will usually be upwards of 2:1. That is to much calcium to phos as teh puppy will grow too fast and there is potential for joint problems like dysplasia and pano.

So adding that much calcium into there diet will really throw that balanced ratio off. I won't even feed a puppy food with Glucosamine and Chondroitin as the puppy makes it own and adding synthetic will cause the puppy to not make as much on it's own and synthetic supplements just are anywhere near as usable as what they make on their own.

If you're feeding a quality large breed puppy food you will not need to add anything to it
 

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I agree with MaggiesVoice. From what I've read large breed formula puppy foods are designed to cause slower bone growth to reduce the risk of hip dysplasia. I would be afraid to add extra calcium.
 

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Kate
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Mmm.... I feed a good quality puppy food (regular PP Focus Pup, not the large breed stuff), trusting that the percentages, nutrients, etc are what my dog needs to be healthy and grow. I switch to adult food at around 6 months at which point I'm less concerned about rapid growth and more interested in all my dogs being on the same food for practicality sake.

That said, I do not feed as much food as the dog food maker expects me to feed per the back of the bag. And the percentages if I feed those regular big amounts of food per day are minimal compared to the therapeutic levels recommended by the vets for a large breed dog. That is why the glucosamine levels listed on dog food bags are completely useless compared to how much the dogs need for it actually do any good.

For a large breed dog - they should be getting 1000-1500 mg of glucosamine and msm for it to be therapeutic.

Those dog food bags have about 500 ppm/mg listed in their guaranteed analysis - per (I assume) a daily ration of food? If you feed that daily ration of food.

Anyway, there are some practical reasons why my guys get at least 1 glycoflex III (500 mg glucosamine), per day (each dog, including pups) + during the 4-6 month phase when pano "might" show up, I give 1 vitamin C pill per day in addition to that.

Pano is supposedly caused by a viral infection - in which case, it can't hurt to give your growing pups a little extra vitamin C.


**** To answer the OP's question though.... no, I don't add calcium or any nutrivet type supplements to puppies.
 

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Point of diminishing returns start at 750mg of Glucosimine and is virtually a wash anywhere above 1000mg. MSM needs a vitamin C and preferably an Ester-C to be taken full advantage of. Most people including vets don't even know this. 1000-1500mg is way over kill and is just a waste. Sounds like they want you to buy more supplements.
 

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Point of diminishing returns start at 750mg of Glucosimine and is virtually a wash anywhere above 1000mg. MSM needs a vitamin C and preferably an Ester-C to be taken full advantage of. Most people including vets don't even know this. 1000-1500mg is way over kill and is just a waste. Sounds like they want you to buy more supplements.
so basically it’s a multivitamin paste, and i guess tablets that are mostly calcium? would it hurt him if we gave him either?
 

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Kate
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Point of diminishing returns start at 750mg of Glucosimine and is virtually a wash anywhere above 1000mg. MSM needs a vitamin C and preferably an Ester-C to be taken full advantage of. Most people including vets don't even know this. 1000-1500mg is way over kill and is just a waste. Sounds like they want you to buy more supplements.

My Jacks had mild bilateral hip dysplasia.

My vet (also long time golden retriever owner) recommended 1000-1500 glucosamine, 1000 MSM, and a good percentage of Chondroitin as well.

My vet themselves did not sell the product, so it was not a sales situation.

They recommended Cosequin DS with MSM, or Glycoflex III - I went with Glycoflex III the physical rehab vet strongly recommended the brand.

They also recommended keeping him active and lean - including letting him do as much as he wanted, including agility.

He was a very active dog all his life and had xrays done at 2-3 different points (checking spleen, but also catching a glimpse of his hips). There were no bone changes or progression of arthritis in his hips. He stayed as strong and active in his senior years as he was when he was younger.

Happiest memory was bringing him back out into the obedience ring in what turned out to be our last chance to do so (Sept trial, he died the following August). He flew at my side as active and strong as any 2 year old. The months that followed, he went on hikes, went swimming, etc like normal. To the last week of his life, he still went nuts about going for his usual daily walks (about 3 miles).

It may have been him?

But he was on a 2 chews a day schedule his entire life and I feel it did some good. Will not prevent hip dysplasia or elbow dysplasia - but can help keep a dog sound and active all his life.

Vitamin C - comes from breeder recommendation and is mainly related to pano and easing/preventing.
 

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My Jacks had mild bilateral hip dysplasia.

My vet (also long time golden retriever owner) recommended 1000-1500 glucosamine, 1000 MSM, and a good percentage of Chondroitin as well.

My vet themselves did not sell the product, so it was not a sales situation.

They recommended Cosequin DS with MSM, or Glycoflex III - I went with Glycoflex III the physical rehab vet strongly recommended the brand.

They also recommended keeping him active and lean - including letting him do as much as he wanted, including agility.

He was a very active dog all his life and had xrays done at 2-3 different points (checking spleen, but also catching a glimpse of his hips). There were no bone changes or progression of arthritis in his hips. He stayed as strong and active in his senior years as he was when he was younger.

Happiest memory was bringing him back out into the obedience ring in what turned out to be our last chance to do so (Sept trial, he died the following August). He flew at my side as active and strong as any 2 year old. The months that followed, he went on hikes, went swimming, etc like normal. To the last week of his life, he still went nuts about going for his usual daily walks (about 3 miles).

It may have been him?

But he was on a 2 chews a day schedule his entire life and I feel it did some good. Will not prevent hip dysplasia or elbow dysplasia - but can help keep a dog sound and active all his life.

Vitamin C - comes from breeder recommendation and is mainly related to pano and easing/preventing.

If you had an issue to start they may have just prescribed the 1000-1500mg so that any extra they can use they will use but after 750mg they use very little at that point. For example, at 1000mg they may use only 900mg but at 1500mg they may only use 1100mg,. the diminishing returns factor.
 

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so basically it’s a multivitamin paste, and i guess tablets that are mostly calcium? would it hurt him if we gave him either?
There is no way to know if it will hurt him but the chances are there to imbalance their calcium intake which could lead to joint issues and early in life as well. So I personally wouldn't give those supplements
 

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Kate
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If you had an issue to start they may have just prescribed the 1000-1500mg so that any extra they can use they will use but after 750mg they use very little at that point. For example, at 1000mg they may use only 900mg but at 1500mg they may only use 1100mg,. the diminishing returns factor.
So... curious, where exactly are you getting these ideas from? :)

I know what I know from orthopedic vets, rehab vets (meaning vets who are in the business of getting injured athletes healed up), breeders (including those who are also vets), and mondo titled/experienced trainers who do agility, field, and obedience and have a keen interest in keeping their dogs sound and strong into old age.
 

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LoL not ideas, this is info from the source such as Vet schools from University of Penn, Kansas State and Purdue all of which I have visited and the R&D labs of Purina, Iams (at the time patent company of Eukanuba as well), Hills and Nutro which I have visited as well over the last 15 years.
 

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Kate
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LoL not ideas, this is info from the source such as Vet schools from University of Penn, Kansas State and Purdue all of which I have visited and the R&D labs of Purina, Iams (at the time patent company of Eukanuba as well), Hills and Nutro which I have visited as well over the last 15 years.
Ah. :)

Well, good luck with that.
 

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I will since it is where the research is done. Again with a dog with current issues they may just give that 1500mg knowing they won't use it all but try to get the maximum dosage but there is certainly a point of diminishing results starting at 750mg. I didn't say there was zero benefit. But for a person looking to spend a dog without issues, it's no question a waste. And for puppies, not really recommended. If you look at most high end food there usually isn't any joint care until the adult food. There's a reason for that.
 

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Kate
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I will since it is where the research is done. Again with a dog with current issues they may just give that 1500mg knowing they won't use it all but try to get the maximum disagree but there is certainly a point of diminishing results starting at 750mg. I didn't say there was zero benefit. But for a person looking to spend a dog without issues, it's no question a waste. And for puppies, not really recommended. If you look at most high end food there usually isn't any joint care until the adult food. There's a reason for that.
I'm more respectful of advice given to me by people whose job isn't about selling their dog food products, but those vets who are responsible for keeping canine athletes sound and on their feet.

ETA - Vitamin C advice came from breeders when I asked them questions on how to keep pano away while raising pups. I do not give vitamin C to adult dogs + it's usually added to joint supplements. You don't have to add it
 

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Last time I checked, U of Penn, Purdue and K-State don't sell dog food. But yet you will only buy food from those food companies because they have the proper vets certified nutritionists? I don't listen to the propaganda, but the science. OK, have your fun too :)

Edit:
I forgot to mention the Vitamin C thing... NOT from breeders. It's is from research for anti-inflammatory and Ester-C is chelated meaning its bound to an amino acid (protein) so it is absorbed into the blood stream and available as needed. Vitamin C is available in the GI tract and once it moves out it has to wait for more to be eaten before using again. Some studies have shown (don't remember where I read or saw it as it was about 5 years ago) that with more vitamin C in the system increases the effectiveness of Glucosamine and MSM as a whole which is the reason you want to have Ester-C and not just a standard vitamin C
 

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Puddles
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Hello all! just got our golden puppy today! The breeder gave us a calcium tablet supplement by nutrivet as well as a paste, they said to give the paste twice a day and a tablet once a day, this is healthy and normal right? i want a second opinion
I'm always a little skeptical of any product recommendations for something they profit from. I too have heard you don't want to add additional calcium for large breed puppies as you want slow growth and this can lead to joint issues.

But I'm a purist and feed a quality puppy food recommended by the breeder and don't add anything. I switch them over to adult food around 4 to 6 months as instructed and have never had a problem. What food did the breeder tell you to feed? Look to see what the calcium level is for this food, could be you have plenty without adding more. Sadly vets are not always the best source on nutrition for specific breeds.
Does this help?
The recommended range for dietary calcium in large-breed puppies is 0.8% to 1.2% on a dry matter basis. Until 6 months of age, the small intestinal tract passively absorbs 70% of total dietary calcium
Example: ProPlan Focus Large breed puppy has 1.1% of calcium so it's already at the high end of what is needed.

Congrats on the new puppy! Hope you have a peaceful 1st night.
 

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Think that we are pretty sure who funds most of those studies..The dog food big 4 companies of course!:rolleyes:


Edit: This was posted to show just how pervasive these companies can be. Educational institutions in the USA cannot afford the research themselves, so they have to reply on contributions. A little research will disclose alot about the conflicts of interests that the Big 4 pose. If the public is still unsure..try writing to the institution of your choice, and see what (if any) answers that you receive, relative as to where they get their dog food research funding. (word of mouth doesn't count)
 

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Puddles
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Think that we are pretty sure who funds most of those studies..The dog food big 4 companies of course!:rolleyes:

The information I provided has nothing to do with grainfree food or big 4 company conspiracy! It was information from petmd. The example was to help OP to understand how to read the label on whatever food she is using. They asked about needing supplements or additional calcium and nothing about what food to feed!
 

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He thinks the entire pet food industry is a conspiracy theory. No matter what kind of scientific studies there may be, he crys foul with conspiracy theory and disregards it lol but yet he still feeds a food from one of the worst offending companies with recalls and poor QC in the Diamond company.

Also, Jeff, you're saying that some of the most accredited veterinary Universities that do A LOT of these studies are giving final results in favor of food companies and not the truth? That every study is false information because some of them are funded by food companies? The reason why is so there is an independent study separate from the their own. Then what the hell are any of us doing trusting ANY study done by these Universities? That is where most of all these studies are done like Tuffs, UC Davis, U of Penn (seen as the top Vet school in the country and some say the world), Purdue, Cornell to name a few.

Edit:
Not to say the author of that may or may not have a "conflict of interest" as well but it sure looks like it. He is a crossfit guy who founded a Keto diet dog food and his "type of food" is implicated in the DCM issue (his food falls under the BEG diet). So he's likely eating a Keto diet himself with his Crossfit workouts and he thinks dogs should eat like that too? It's like a vegetarian thinking their dogs should be a vegetarian as well but that doesn't work for dogs. It sounds like a guy with his nose bent out of shape since his pet food segment is under a lot or pressure.
 

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BTW..No one ever claimed that the ENTIRE pet food industry was in cahoots..Just the big four..lead by Purina et al!
I am retired from corporate America where I ran divisions of a few public companies. This behavior is common place among public companies that must satisfy their stock holders. Happily, I got what I wanted and never sacrificed my own values for the cash or stock options! (known as the "hook").

People should do their own research, contact companies, ask questions and make their own decisions. This applies to everything in life..not just dog food.
Common sense, coupled with a trusted doctor or vet, is my own guideline..for food, supplements etc, for myself and my pets.
The FDA has it's place, but should not be followed blindly. There are simply too many cases of "approved" drugs that have turned out to be dangerous..latest example is the, once said to be safe by the FDA.... Ranitidine by name ..a common over the counter stomach remedy.
Another was the highly touted Celebrex (which I was prescribed yrs back, before I did my own research). There have been deadly lapses as well..Thalidomide for example, in the 50's. I won't even get into the FDA's approval of ever stronger pain relievers in the midst of the opioid epidemic.
 
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