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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My husband and I were having this discussion as we were reading our Sunday newspaper. I always take a look at the "Pets" section and all of the litters advertised for sale. It got us to talking about the following:
Do backyard breeders know better?
Do they know that they're not doing the best by their dogs or the breed when they don't do clearances, breed indiscriminately, etc?

Well, to quench my curiosity :curtain:, I called a few of the ads. I discussed at length with one breeder regarding OFA. She knew exactly what these clearances were, why they're done, but she had every excuse in the book as to why she didn't do them.

It ranged from, "all of my breeding dogs are healthy, we've never had a problem in 15 years" to "OFA doesn't clear the puppy, just the sire and the dam" to "it will cost you more for a puppy with these clearances and it still might have ED and HD" to "it isn't required by AKC" to "it is an expensive thing to do." (Essentially cutting her profit margin).

From my little "test" it seems that 2/3 of the "kennels" knew better, while the other didn't really know what I was talking about. He emailed me back saying that the vet said that their dogs were healthy with a good disposition. He'd never heard of OFA before. I'm hopeful that this person at least has enough info now to investigate further if they are interested. Anyone else have any similar story, as I think we've all seen those ads in the back of the paper...:wavey:
 

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I think most are clueless.

I have been so sick to my stomach since last week. Good friends of mine have rescued many animals, especially birds (Macaws, etc) and various dogs.

Last summer they decide to get a male border collie puppy, and bragged he is papered, (bought him through the classified ads). Next they "rescue" a female border collie last fall, now on facebook they have announced that puppies are coming next month!!! The sire won't even be a year old when these puppies are born!

These people are BIG animal lovers, and I think they believe just because both dogs are registered, they will have high quality puppies. I don't believe they are doing it for the money, but just because they want more puppies like the two dogs they have.
 

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I absolutely love your experiment! Thank you for sharing.

I'm quite surprised! I know quite a few show people who don't do OFA's or breed dogs with behavior issues that may have genetic components. Their justifications are very interesting and many of them seem to seriously believe they're doing the right thing, that they really don't need OFA information, and hey, it's okay the dog is a bit fearful..... we'll socialize the puppies better! I just can't get too angry with them...I can't reason with them either... It's impressive at times how people view what they're doing even when they have the knowledge of other information available.

OFA is the same thing as a vet check by so many... I just got off the phone with someone wanting free training, and by the way, help placing a non-appropriate-colored small breed dog that was too big for her breeding program. OFA's? Nah, he had a vet check. "Oh....well...I dont know anyoen who would get a dog from a breeder without that information. That's the advantage to getting an adult dog from a breeder...you have all the health information and know strucutrally what's going on.."

Thanks so much for sharing.... your post made my day for sure!
 

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Where The Bitches Rule
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My opinion?

Well there is "clueless" (10%) - they just don't know better :no:

And then there is the other "CLUELESS" (90%) - they do know but still do not really get it or care to. :doh:
 

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I feel bad for the unsuspecting owners. I always hate the conversation with an owner of a limping youngster:

Me: "He seems a bit stiff in his hips and I don't like the way he walks. I think we need to schedule him for some x-rays. Were his parents OFA certified?"

Owner: "Oh yes, he has papers, so I'm sure it can't be his hips."

I wish people would come to the vet BEFORE they decide on a puppy! But then again, I'd probably always recommend a golden from a good breeder instead of the Min Pin they want...
 

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Love my Golden Boys!!
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I was searching on Kijiji the other day and came across an ad for Golden puppies.....$800.00 per puppy. I e-mailed them (out of curiosity) to ask them if the parents had all their clearances done...this is the response I received (this was an ad from Alberta/Canada).

Thank you for your interest. I have not had any of the tests done on the parents, no. Their movement and such has always been good. I have not had any problems with any of the pups that they have produced. They are both from North Dakota. The mom is triple registered with the AKC, CKC and UKC and I provide a copy of her papers. She is 7 years old to be 8 June 12th this year. The dad is going to be 2 April 17th.

The pups will be having their first shot this Friday and will be chipped Friday as well. The last two pics on the Ad on Kijiji are pics of the mom and dad.

I figured for $800.00 that clearances would have been done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Cubby- My very good friend (whom lives 10 hours away) has boxers and they've done something similar. They've now had 3 or 4 litters. It infuriates me and I've tried to approach her about it and discuss it, but it gets very heated. In the end, I really value my friendship. We have decided to not talk about her dogs/breeding.

Laurie- I like your new siggy!
Yeah, the breeder that I talked to that knew about OFA but didn't practice any testing wanted $900 for full registration and $600 for limited, because "you can make money if you breed them." :doh:

IowaGold- We see that a lot at our clinic, too. I am so happy when someone calls and asks, "Do you know a good XXXX breeder?" If we don't, I often do some investigating and get back to them. If they follow through, I'm glad, if not, I tried.

When I spoke with the two "breeders" from the paper, it was amazing how well they had their speech down. It was evident how the unsuspecting and uneducated (in this area) could fall victim to thinking they were getting something they weren't.
 

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I think the majority that are in the paper and places like craigs list know and dont care. There is one "breeder" here in North Florida that if she cant sell all her dogs, has dumped them at the shelter. And in one month dumped 3 litters. The shelter contacted our rescue to get the 6 puppies. Between the president of our rescue and the shelter, they had almost talked her into giving the parents up. But at the last minute she backed out. She also had 2 more females pregnant. The shelter is in hard spot because the laws dont allow them to take the dogs away because they have shelter, food and shots but if they dont take the puppies she would probably dump them somewhere else. I digressed on my story but she knew to have clearances but didnt bother. And also admited that they had some inbreeding.

I fostered one of the puppies and she was a sweetie (Darby). And out of the 6 puppies 1 had to have both hips fixed and 1 to have 1 hip fixed.
 

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I think that the majority of the BYBs truly care about their dogs. They may have an inclination that things can go wrong and some have had the worst happen in their "programs". The ones that have all of the excuses for not doing clearances clearly understand why someone would do clearances - they know what OFA is - but they rely on people seeing cute golden retrievers and falling for the lines delivered by the puppy "expert". The irony is that they can really care for and about their own dogs and then turn around sell puppies to people who shouldn't be allowed to own pet snail.

A lot of them seem to be motivated by financial gain - I know one local BYB'er in New England that has 5-6 litters a year and charges $1200/puppy. I'm guessing that she's probably clearing 50-60k in puppy sales - and another 10-15k on stud fees every year...it can be very lucrative.

The other thing to keep in mind is that some of these BYB'ers did send films for their dog and the dog didn't clear; or they took films and decided not to send them for review...

Erica
 

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I believe Shadow's breeder knew she was going about breeding GR's all wrong. I even tried to get her a mentor, but that was ignored. I still have a few of her email messages as we chatted back and forth. I later found out they were breeding Caveliers (sp) and did have one litter of Huskies.

I would consider a pup from a hobby breeder, but never a BYB. My definition of a BYB is one who is in it for the money only and knows the risks involved when not bothering with clearances.
 

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I think the golden owner who wants to have a litter of puppies and finds a stud for their female is more often clueless. Look how many times some innocent comes onto this forum and says something about wanting to breed their dog, then gets educational responses and finally says "Wow, I didn't know all that goes into it". For those BYBs who have multiple litters a year, advertise in the paper and on internet sites and charge big bucks, I believe they know ****** well what they're doing....producing animals that may very well have major medical problems. Buyer beware should be everyone's mantra when looking for a puppy:(
 

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I watch the classifieds for Oklahoma City...the BYB'ers who are consistently producing litters are now throwing in statements about clearances when in reality it's a "health check" by a vet or one dog in the pedigree had a hip clearance. They're now trying to talk the talk but by no means walking the walk. It's a shame.
 

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I think the golden owner who wants to have a litter of puppies and finds a stud for their female is more often clueless. Look how many times some innocent comes onto this forum and says something about wanting to breed their dog, then gets educational responses and finally says "Wow, I didn't know all that goes into it". For those BYBs who have multiple litters a year, advertise in the paper and on internet sites and charge big bucks, I believe they know ****** well what they're doing....producing animals that may very well have major medical problems. Buyer beware should be everyone's mantra when looking for a puppy:(

I totally agree with this. I think so many people think a registered dog with a good temperment is all that's required to be a good candidate for breeding. I really think they don't know any better. They think their darling baby would make a wonderful momma and want to give her a try or two. Those who breed many times, however, are more likely to know what they're doing is not the correct way.

One of my friends just bred her second litter of yorkies. Her girls came out of newspaper ads, the stud dogs were ones that belonged to people she would meet in town. No kinds of clearances. And she sold the puppies for $1200 each. What was so frustrating for me is she does know better....she shows in obedience and is a member of the local kennel club.
 

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A few are clueless, and may be able to be educated. The rest do not care one whit for anything other than the checks in their hands. THose who DO know better, but choose not to do the right thing, are the worst of the worst.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I think the golden owner who wants to have a litter of puppies and finds a stud for their female is more often clueless. Look how many times some innocent comes onto this forum and says something about wanting to breed their dog, then gets educational responses and finally says "Wow, I didn't know all that goes into it". For those BYBs who have multiple litters a year, advertise in the paper and on internet sites and charge big bucks, I believe they know ****** well what they're doing....producing animals that may very well have major medical problems. Buyer beware should be everyone's mantra when looking for a puppy:(
I agree, I think that this is also very true. I am glad when people actually take the time to research and realize that breeding is far more of an undertaking than just finding two sexually mature dogs of the same breed. I wish educating people were enough, but obviously there are the people that know they're wrong, and don't care. They care more about the check in hand. I don't dispute their love for their dogs, but I have a love of all dogs and couldn't/wouldn't want to bring a dog into this world that could have health problems.
 

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Melissa, I thought I was the only one that called people from the paper! I have been known to call (it is beyond my control!) people advertising intact animals for sale. I have offered to buy them or take them and place them, find a rescue organization, you name it. These people are definately out for a buck. I have to say I am not surprised about your results from your "test".
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Melissa, I thought I was the only one that called people from the paper! I have been known to call (it is beyond my control!) people advertising intact animals for sale. I have offered to buy them or take them and place them, find a rescue organization, you name it. These people are definately out for a buck. I have to say I am not surprised about your results from your "test".
This isn't the first time....:curtain:

I can't seem to help myself...especially the golden ads. A lady that operates a small rescue in Washington, PA, got Bea, my parent's rescue dog from the classified ads. They were listed as "4 female goldens, good for breeding $300 for all." She called, paid, picked up, spayed, vetted, and adopted them out.
 

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the only experiance i have had with a byb was just recently, i can just surmise what happened, but it seems to me, a litter of labs was born, they couldn't sell them all or knew they were sick and threw 3 babies about 4 months out in the cold and snow like last nights trash.picked up by animal control, came down with parvo,1 died, came down with kennel cough, olivia is with me, her sibling is still sick at the shelter, she is lucky, this shelter treats sick animals. with the economy not the greatest, don't try to make a fast buck byb's
 

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Several years ago I was working an event for a local rescue group and a mother and her son (probably around 12 years) came looking to adopt a kitten. They weren't interested in any of the kittens available because they were too old (12 weeks at most?).

On the way out the mom mentioned their lab was going to have puppies. A worker offered her a spay coupon so it wouldn't happen again. The mom replied, "oh no, we wanted this litter, my son's in charge of it. It's his 'proving he's responsible' project."

I had already heard enough between thinking the kittens were too old and putting a child in charge of a litter. Then, when the same worker mentioned to be careful who they gave the puppies to because labs in this area tend to be mistreated, the lady said "Oh, we're charging $1500 for them so I know they'll be well-treated." :doh::doh::doh:
 

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I think that most byb's are ignorant of what is out there. I'm talking about the family who breeds their bitch once to the dog down the road of the same breed, which make up about 85% of AKC registrations (dogs who are only bred once). They have NO idea what is involved in breeding dogs, and cannot fathom all that goes into it. They have never heard of OFA and frankly don't realize how common genetic diseases are in our breed. If they did know all this, they'd either do something about it or say, well forget it, we'll just buy another dog.
I really give them the benefit of the doubt on this. They have a Walt Disney view of pets and truly don't see anything wrong with what they're doing. It is a very pleasant ordeal for them and anything bad (i.e. producing unhealthy puppies, puppies ending up in shelters) never even reaches them. Since they do a poor job of screening buyers, do not have contracts and have no concept of follow up, those problems never reach their door, there is no negative consequence to what they do.
The problem I have with all of this is -- in this day and age, there is NO EXCUSE for ignorance. You can do ONE google search that takes 0.432 seconds on "breeding my golden retriever" or whatever, and INSTANTLY you are awash in terms like "OFA" "CERF" "AKC" "GRCA" etc etc etc. You'd think this information overload would tip people off. Maybe they'd look into it a bit more, ask their vet, something. At that point, NOT educating themselves or choosing to ignore this behavior because they are overwhelmed or think "that's for the pros" is the utmost in apathy and ignorance.
I understand how it happens, but I don't take it as acceptable. There is no excuse for "not knowing" this day and age.
 
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