Breeder who does not cert. elbows?
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Nope. I know a few dogs with ED who don't show any signs of it at all, it's just in the xrays. It IS a problem in the breed right now...
Here's how I look at it. Goldens are very popular, there are lots of breeders and lots of puppies out there. So you have a choice, get one without health clearances on the parents and hope you don't end up with huge vet bills, or keep looking. If a breeder doesn't do elbows, is it because the dogs didn't pass? What else are they hiding or cutting corners on? Do you want to support a breeder that does that sort of thing? Or do a bit more looking and pay the same price (usually - a few $100 is nothing compared to multiple vet bills!!!) for a pup whose parents do have all the clearances?
Lana
Here's how I look at it. Goldens are very popular, there are lots of breeders and lots of puppies out there. So you have a choice, get one without health clearances on the parents and hope you don't end up with huge vet bills, or keep looking. If a breeder doesn't do elbows, is it because the dogs didn't pass? What else are they hiding or cutting corners on? Do you want to support a breeder that does that sort of thing? Or do a bit more looking and pay the same price (usually - a few $100 is nothing compared to multiple vet bills!!!) for a pup whose parents do have all the clearances?
Lana
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Some breeders were slow to adopt OFA certs for elbows, but at this point, it's a no brainer. As PG pointed out, you do them at the same time as the hips, so it doesn't add a lot of cost. It would make me very concerned that the dog had failed on elbows and the breeder was potentially concealing it.
Even if the breeder weren't hiding bad results, I'd still be very concerned that they had failed to do this standard, important test. It doesn't say much for their practices.
Even if the breeder weren't hiding bad results, I'd still be very concerned that they had failed to do this standard, important test. It doesn't say much for their practices.
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Have you discussed this with the breeder? I will catch some flack here but elbows are still one of those gray areas in my opinion.
Did the dog not pass an elbow clearance? Did the breeder not attempt an elbow clearance? Did the breeder take the x-rays but not submit due to some belief/disbelief in the clearance?
When I did clearances on my first bitch in 1998 there were many people not doing elbows on Goldens. I do not believe at that time it was part of the GRCA Code of Ethics for breeding. In her litter in 2000 one of the bitches was diagnosed by OFA as bilatteral grade 1 ED. Of course it was the bitch I kept. None of the peolple I showed the xrays to agreed with OFA's opinion. I redid the x-rays a year later and submitted to both OFA and OVC (Ontario Veternarian College). OFA's diagnosis stayed the same but OVC said she was clear in both elbows. Same exact exrays, both well respected experts two totally opposing opinions. She never has shown any lameness at any time in her nearly 9 years of life.
I did breed this bitch, paying close attention to the dogs in stud's pedigree to ensure there were no 'known" cases of ED. One of the boys in this litter was also diagnosed as bilateral grade 1 ED. We sent the exact same x-rays to OVC and, you guessed it, they cleared both elbows. This nearly 4 year old boy also has never experienced a day of lameness.
So do I bellieve that elbows need to be checked? Absolutely, because there is ED in the breed.
Do I believe that the experts really know what they are looking at and interpreting? No, but I think it is important that we continue looking and testing all breeding stack so that one day they will understand and interpret correctly what they are looking at.
Do I know some breeders, less each year, that due to many stories like mine feel doing elbows are a waste of money? Yes. Does this make them irresponsible? Not neccessarily in my opinion.
Should you get a pup from this breeding? Seeing as you are asking I would probably say no. If you are not totally comfortable with it I think it will linger in the back of your mind and fester into a problem related to something else with the pup later on.
Did the dog not pass an elbow clearance? Did the breeder not attempt an elbow clearance? Did the breeder take the x-rays but not submit due to some belief/disbelief in the clearance?
When I did clearances on my first bitch in 1998 there were many people not doing elbows on Goldens. I do not believe at that time it was part of the GRCA Code of Ethics for breeding. In her litter in 2000 one of the bitches was diagnosed by OFA as bilatteral grade 1 ED. Of course it was the bitch I kept. None of the peolple I showed the xrays to agreed with OFA's opinion. I redid the x-rays a year later and submitted to both OFA and OVC (Ontario Veternarian College). OFA's diagnosis stayed the same but OVC said she was clear in both elbows. Same exact exrays, both well respected experts two totally opposing opinions. She never has shown any lameness at any time in her nearly 9 years of life.
I did breed this bitch, paying close attention to the dogs in stud's pedigree to ensure there were no 'known" cases of ED. One of the boys in this litter was also diagnosed as bilateral grade 1 ED. We sent the exact same x-rays to OVC and, you guessed it, they cleared both elbows. This nearly 4 year old boy also has never experienced a day of lameness.
So do I bellieve that elbows need to be checked? Absolutely, because there is ED in the breed.
Do I believe that the experts really know what they are looking at and interpreting? No, but I think it is important that we continue looking and testing all breeding stack so that one day they will understand and interpret correctly what they are looking at.
Do I know some breeders, less each year, that due to many stories like mine feel doing elbows are a waste of money? Yes. Does this make them irresponsible? Not neccessarily in my opinion.
Should you get a pup from this breeding? Seeing as you are asking I would probably say no. If you are not totally comfortable with it I think it will linger in the back of your mind and fester into a problem related to something else with the pup later on.
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I would say go with a breeder that does all health clearances as a practice...there really is no excuse for not doing them...but I also have heard exactly what Hank has posted above, so I personally would not eliminate a puppy from a known honest breeder, who does share openly info in regard to their own personal experiences! Kudos Hank!!
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Yeah - if the breeder shared a story like Hank, I would definitely not necessarily run the other way. An unexplained hole in the clearances, though, is a whole other matter.
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My opinion is just slightly different.
The Elbow clearance is relatively new, compared to the others.
I can guarantee you there are a lot of good, quality breeders that have dogs without elbow clearances, or at least had at one time.
Would I buy from a breeder that did Elbows if possible? Heck yes.
But, would I allow that one clearance to prevent me from buying a dog from a breeder with proven lines, where the parents and the rest of the line have proven themselves over time, stop me from buying a dog?
Probably not. As long as everything else is there and the line is well proven.
I'm on my fifth Golden, and none of them had parents with Elbow clearances on both sides. Gilmour does on his Pops side (Lycinan), but not his Mom's side (Pebwin).
I've never owned a dog with elbow issues.
But like I said. It is very highly preferred, as others have stated. And any new lines should most definitely have them at this point.
But if the pup comes from older, well established and respected lines, with no history of issues in this regard, I would probably be willing to let it slide.
The Elbow clearance is relatively new, compared to the others.
I can guarantee you there are a lot of good, quality breeders that have dogs without elbow clearances, or at least had at one time.
Would I buy from a breeder that did Elbows if possible? Heck yes.
But, would I allow that one clearance to prevent me from buying a dog from a breeder with proven lines, where the parents and the rest of the line have proven themselves over time, stop me from buying a dog?
Probably not. As long as everything else is there and the line is well proven.
I'm on my fifth Golden, and none of them had parents with Elbow clearances on both sides. Gilmour does on his Pops side (Lycinan), but not his Mom's side (Pebwin).
I've never owned a dog with elbow issues.
But like I said. It is very highly preferred, as others have stated. And any new lines should most definitely have them at this point.
But if the pup comes from older, well established and respected lines, with no history of issues in this regard, I would probably be willing to let it slide.
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But at every outcross of a line, isn't there a risk of introducing a greater potential for ED if you aren't doing clearances?
And, what is the definition of "no history"? In the case of there being no history of clearances how would you know if it isn't a problem? I'd prefer a history of no problems provable with documentation.
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As Hank's post demonstrates there are still a lot of gray areas when it comes to elbows.
However, I would not entertain buying a puppy from a breeder who purposefully did NOT do elbow xrays. Yeah, of the "big four" they are the newest clearance to become standard practice but that doesn't excuse a head-in-the-sand attitude. They've been doing elbows regularly for 10 yrs. Unless you are breeding to a very old stud dog or frozen semen there's no excuse not to have a clearance or at least an xray.
However, I would not entertain buying a puppy from a breeder who purposefully did NOT do elbow xrays. Yeah, of the "big four" they are the newest clearance to become standard practice but that doesn't excuse a head-in-the-sand attitude. They've been doing elbows regularly for 10 yrs. Unless you are breeding to a very old stud dog or frozen semen there's no excuse not to have a clearance or at least an xray.
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Most people buy Pet dogs, not breeding dogs. If I was developing a breeding line, I would demand it.
I have a real problem with this. A "Pet dog" every bit as much deserves to be sound and pain free as a dog being used for breeding. The heartbreak and expense is not less for pet owner.
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I spoke with the breeder this morning, I asked about hips, elbows, eyes and heart. She said she did not do the elbows. I also questioned the sire because he was born in June of 07 and this particular pup is 12 weeks old. When I went to check the OFA site I read that the preliminary on the hips was good. I was really trying to figure out if she had bread before having the actual certification. Anyway..... I will move on as someone stated above if I had to ask then I should not move forward. I appreciate everyone's feedback. If anyone knows of a well bred male puppy in the CT area. I would love to talk with the breeder. I am looking for a pain free pet! LOL
I'm not sure that I understand, given that the post that I replied to was only the two sentences.
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I fear this is turning into another PD thread. I'm outta here.
????? I don't know why... I replied to your post, as it was written, believing that you were saying that you'd only insist on ED clearances if you were going to be breeding. My problem with that (and not with YOU) is my belief that a pet dog (and I've stated before that I don't believe in the "just" a pet nomenclature) should be as sound as any other dog in order to live a long, healthy, pain free life. There is nothing "PD" or derogatory about that. I've ALWAYS advocated that people purchasing pets look for there to be a solid history of clearances on both sides of the pedigree.
If I was not reading it correctly, or you meant something entirely different, great!
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