Golden Retriever Dog Forums banner

1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

I'm looking for a breeder in the MD/VA area and am having a hard time confirming whether or not the breeders I'm finding are responsible.

Additionally, I like a larger, blocky head and am being drawn to sites advertising "English Cream/Creme" goldens - which seem to be very controversial.

I can't tell if some of these sites are marketing ploys or legitimate, as they bring up the fact that English Cream goldens are not a separate breed, just goldens being held to the British standard (KC) vs. American standard. However, the text on all of these websites feels like it's been plagiarized from a single source - so it's making it hard to know which (if any) of the breeders is the original/legit.

Do you have any feedback on the breeders below? Or, do you have suggestions for American golden breeders that have the larger frame and head I'm looking for?

Last question - these English golden sites are claiming that the English line of goldens have a slightly different temperament than American goldens - is that accurate?

I know I asked lots of questions, but I had a golden from a reputable breeder growing up that ended up dying very young (8) and was not the healthiest - he had a heart murmur. He was beautiful and had a great temperament, but I want my new puppy to be much healthier than he was.

Here are some of the breeders I'm looking at:

https://www.promiselandgoldens.com/about-us
Kalm Sea Goldens
Liberty Run Golden Retrievers - Breeders of healthy, intelligent, and calm Golden Retriever Puppies
pinewoodacresgoldens.com

Thank you in advance for your help!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,740 Posts
I have a Kalm Sea golden! I'm very very happy with my boy, he's been wonderful from the beginning. I honestly could not have asked for a better dog. He's smart, healthy, happy, and beautiful. I'm very biased, but I think he's got the best personality and temperament :) No health issues here at all, except for a yeasty ear once or twice (although I think that's more me being incompetent at drying off his ears after a swim). Kaizer will be two in June. She does tend to have a long waiting list, but I think it's worth waiting for one of her puppies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,822 Posts
Kalm Sea is the only one of these I have any good feel about- I didn't go search out the prospective parents' clearances since the website is out of date as to expected litters- but if you post them someone can do that. Promiseland is same old rhetoric with no titles and their stud dog does not appear to have much going for him except coat color if one prefers that color. He is lacking hip/elbow on OFA.
Liberty Run just made my head hurt to try to read through and Pinewood uses a clearance scheme that is not verifiable and easily falsified. Not saying they have but that it is do-able so I can't get behind those sorts of schemes at all ever.
 

·
Puddles
Joined
·
4,020 Posts
A golden is a golden. Getting a pup from parents with proper OFA clearances is far more important than the color of their coat.. and usually cheaper. No matter what people put on their web sites "English Cream" doesn't improve health, longevity or temperament. It's a golden and will have whatever the breeder invested into the breeding of the litter.
 

·
With Her 3 Goldens
Joined
·
193 Posts
If I were looking for a golden that was lighter in color/English style in the DC area I would be contacting Cindy at Lycinan. If she doesn't have any litters planned, she might be able to tell you if there are any upcoming litters in the area sired by her boy Flash, who I think would fit what you're looking for....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Thank you for the quick responses!

Thank you all for taking the time to reply - your advice has been very helpful. I looked at Lycinan Golden's website and will be sure to reach out.

Additionally, you confirmed my thoughts about some of the breeders - I'll be sure to check OFA for clearance info moving forward.

I'm always welcome to more suggestions as many of the breeders suggested are "sold out" for the summer/year.

appreciate it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Owner Promsie Land Goldens. Hope this is helping you answer some of your questions you have about us.

Purchasing our own dogs and then becoming breeders set us up for learning a great deal lot over the years. Vets, specialist (Orthopedics, Ophthalmologist, Cardiologist, Geneticist all for animals), studying overseas methods, and some of the largest dog research centers in the USA have all proven a wealth of information. I take an interest in an animal’s health; this comes from working in the medical field and treating friends, family and general patients throughout my life.

Promise Land Goldens is not trying to putdown other breeders (like I have seen done for many years), I am sharing some thoughts and lessons learned to educate the public as well as share what I have learned with other discerning breeders. Without continuous education we can’t ensure our work contributes to improved lines of the dog breeds we each love. These are few things I would like to share; some of this may be old hat to those in the business.

In the beginning I believed that an ophthalmologist’s yearly eye test was sufficient for a dog I was planning to breed. I now know that this isn’t the case. Many fail to realize the importance of Prcd-PRA, Pra1, and Pra2 and how these are important indicators to track when working to eliminate genetic eye disease from your lines. Even though the parent’s of a litter may receive good reports from an ophthalmologist every year, and the parent’s never develop eye problems, this doesn’t mean that a puppy from these parents can’t go blind. Surprised???? Well this is absolutely true!

There is no cure or surgery that can correct these genetically caused problems. The catalyst for these problems are genetic chromosomal markers of the Sire & Dam, if not matched up correctly, they will spawn genetic issues in their offspring. I began studying genetics in 2015 and Promise Land began incorporating it into the breeding program at the end of 2015.

Your dog, when genetically tested, will result in one of three different chromosomal test results:
Clear- No Chromosome marker
Carrier- A Chromosome marker is present
Affected- A Chromosome mutation is present (may or may not materialize into a problem)

Unfortunately you can’t eliminate all Carriers in certain chromosome mutations, 80% of dogs carry something on their genes. It is the understanding of how to match them up which achieves optimum results.

Breeding a Pra1 Carrier to a Pra1Carrier will more than likely result in 25% Clear, 50% Carrier, and 25% AFFECTED. THIS MEANS ¼ OF THESE DOGs (THOSE THAT ARE AFFECTED) COULD BEGIN GOING BLIND BY THE TIME THEY ARE 3-4 YEARS OF AGE.

Breeding a Pra1 Clear Dog to a Pra1 Carrier Dog will likely result in 50% Clear and 50% Carrier. There WILL BE NO “AFFECTED” dogs; meaning no dogs with a genetic predisposition which could cause blindness.

Breeding a Pra1 Carrier to a Pra2 Carrier, different genetic abnormalities, will not produce dogs with a predisposition for genetically caused blindness.

Breeding a Prcd-Pra Affected with a Prcd-Pra Carrier will produce a litter with a percentage which could GO BLIND around 3-4 YEARS of age.

There are numerous other scenarios as well. It is important to study and learn genetics.

This affects every breed of dog. Please don’t think this only impacts Golden Retrievers.

Given that genetic test results take 6-8 weeks to return (if a poor sample is submitted it take even longer time given the requirement to start over), it is not feasible for breeders to test every puppy; especially given that there are very few canine genetic labs in the world.

Testing the parents is the key. Test’s can get expensive, however if your goal is to improve future generations of dogs there is NO BETTER way. Our use of genetic testing ensures our approach to breeding ensures no affected dogs are used in Promise Land Goldens’ program.

I hear so much about Ichthyosis or ICH. This has been around forever. The canine form of Ichthyosis is not like the human form. Ichthyosis on dogs appears black on adults and white on puppies. It is flakes, or dandruff, on the skin. It is a genetic abnormality condition that has no cure. This is an autosomal recessive trait, meaning it can return in second-generation puppies.

The OFA is aware it returns in future offspring and only accepts first generation offspring. That means when both parents are tested and matched together.

So if you see puppies “ICH cleared by parentage,” remember the parents should not be “second generation” parents, only FIRST GENERATION, (Ichthyosis returns). An ICH Clear dog bred to an ICH Affected dog will not produce any puppies with symptoms. Many dogs are ICH Affected and NEVER have signs of ICH ever materialize. Even if it does it normally doesn’t itch.

Ichthyosis affects many different breeds; it is not just a Golden Retriever concern. It is often confused with allergy dermatitis. Promise Land Goldens believes in doing all it can to remove chromosome mutations from its lines. Unfortunately there is no perfected genetic test to detect ICH causing chromosome mutations.

A few other things I have learned over the years. Even though cancer rates are lower in English Cream Goldens. They still have health issues. All Golden Retriever parents, whether English Cream Golden or American Golden, should be examined for hip issues, other diseases. The OFA and Pennhip are the most widely used in the USA for discerning hip health. This is done to determine if a dog has a genetic condition.
Every dog, as they get older, will develop wear and tear of their joints. Understanding joint help has great potential to lower the frequency of canine hip dysplasia (CHD) when used as a selection criterion.

It is not uncommon for many to challenge OFA results. The majority of the challenges we’ve researched occurred because the person taking the X-ray films did not line up the dog’s hips correctly. It is possible for a Vet Tech taking the films to not recognize this incorrect line up. The quality of an X-ray film depends on the skill of the person producing them. OFA does not regulate the training of film producers. The tests comparing positioning shows that the hip-extended position used by OFA tends to drive the femoral head into the socket, masking the amount of laxity and artificially improving the look of the hip joint. One radiologist may disagree with another and, on occasion, OFA radiologists may even contradict themselves and give different grades to the same film on different occasions. Two-year-old X-rays are examined by three radiologists who report their findings to OFA. If there is a disparity of opinion between the three the agreement of two radiologists is what the OFA documents as the hips’ status. The prelim OFA, which means the dog is less than two years of age, is produced by a single radiologist. The good points of OFA are that it is easily assessable (any vet with x-ray equipment can produce OFA films); the cost is reasonable and is better than no test at all.

A PennHip evaluation not only reports dysplastic, dogs with bone and cartilage abnormalities, but also points to the risk of the dog developing such radiographic signs later. While PennHip does measure laxity, it also looks at the integrity of the joint for dysplasia. The distraction index assigned to each hip joint is based on precise measurements and mathematical calculations.
Veterinarians who wish to submit films to PennHip are required to be trained in PennHip’s techniques and become certified. This assures that standard protocols are used in obtaining the films and ensures accurate data. PennHip’s techniques are accurate in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age. The Pennhip is most accurate at 1 year to 16 months. Pennhip includes hip-extended position, compression and distraction radiographic views. Pennhip's downside is that the cost is high and the requirement for Vet certification means they are not accessible as easily.

Promise Land Goldens primarily uses Pennhip results for breeding. We have recently begun doing more OFA, for comparison; however we use the Pennhip results to determine breeding pairs. This year alone the 4 females bred using Pennhip evaluation scored Excellent to Good Hips with the OFA in their hip scores. One female received only a fair hip score by OFA. This female was produced using a parent pairing process that only utilized OFA results for the Sire. Using only OFA examinations Promise Land Goldens was unable to improve our breeding dogs hip health. The switch to more reliance on Pennhip examinations was to reduce the propensity for “fair” hip scores for dogs we bred to use in our program. NOTE for Breeders using Pennhip examinations: The OFA now posts Pennhip results on their site for all breeders and buyers to see.

As noted earlier, Promise Land uses Pennhip, which is most accurate around one year of age. Having done many studies on dogs we don’t recommend breeding females only one year old, even when a dog scores at the top 5% for hip tightness with PennHip. A one-year-old female breed before she is 2 years of age places inordinate weight from the puppies on her hips potentially pushing her hips out of socket causing the development of hip dysplasia. We have studied dogs through out their lives for research. A male bred younger didn’t have any real change in their hips when they turned 2 years of age. We feel this is due to them not having the female’s burden from carrying the extra weight. BOTTOM LINE: Please don’t use stellar PennHip results as a green light to breed your female before she is two years of age.

Elbow dysplasia is a painful condition that can cause lameness and arthritis. Affected dogs typically show signs of this condition between 4 and 10 months of age. The cause for this is the same as hip dysplasia, to rapid skeletal growth. The most common clinical sign is intermittent or persistent front-leg lameness that gets worse with exercise.

The trouble with Elbow Dysplasia is that the OFA has labeled any x-ray with some sclerosis as dysplastic. Sclerosis is the result of degenerative changes, from normal wear and tear, it will appear in any joint over time. Even humans have some by the time we hit twenty years old. However, some breeds can show a slight degree of sclerosis in the elbow joint by two years of age without any of the elbow conditions. That means the elbow will show Elbow Dysplasia Grade 1. While we should give OFA credit for all of their good services, this should not blind us to occasions and situations where they fall short. Occasionally they misread films and broaden Elbow Dysplasia diagnosis in a manner that is not helpful to those trying to improve their breed program. If a dog receives an OFA report indicating Elbow Dysplasia, and has no symptoms, a breeder should recheck their dog with a CT (Computed Tomography) as a Gold standard due to the propensity for OFA, during elbow screening to mischaracterize sclerosis as dysplastic. In Europe the standard is a 3-view x-ray for elbows. OFA is discussing going to a 3-view technique instead of 2 views. Although OFA knows that CT gives a much better view of joint they feel that there are still to many variables in CT for them to except those in their process.

Promise Land Goldens appreciates all the wonderful efforts of OFA and PennHip. We will be using them for years to come. We hope by educating those around us who were unfamiliar with testing that all breeds of dogs in the future can continue to improve.

Lori Froderman
Owner - Promise Land Goldens
Entropion is when the eye lid roles in slightly. For those that unaware of what it is. It can affect every breed of dog. This can also form in mixed dogs as well. Different factors can cause this. The first cause is if that dog squints to much it can actually train the muscles in the eyelid to roll. The second thing that may cause this. If a large headed male is put with a small headed female. There can be an excess of skin for the dog to grow into. This can happen to any breeding. Some breeds are actually bred to have loose skin on there faces. Such as bull dog type breeds. Many have to have a stitch to hold eyelid in place until the dog grows into loose skin. The stitch is then taken out and the dog is fine. Entropion can resolve itself without surgery. There are cases which the dog will have to much skin or trained muscles to turn under and will need surgery.
When OFA marks a puppy or dog which has had Entropion for any reason it will always be permanent on that dogs record. The Entropion could have been caused as easily as a odd growth spurt of the dogs head and then the grows and it disappears. That dog might never have again for it’s entire life. This goes for any dog in any breeder with OFA. It is believed that there maybe a genetic cause in some cases. Unfortunately they haven’t found the gene as of yet. Breeding the dogs believed to have a genetic form will give you a 5% chance it will transfer.
 

·
Kate
Joined
·
21,873 Posts
Hey.

1. OFA is one of the views done if you are doing Penn Hip. There is no legit reason to avoid sending OFA in UNLESS you are only doing penn hip xrays on dogs prior to 2 years old in order to breed them early. If you are improving your program through the use of penn hip, it should show when you do OFA's.

Join any OFA group on fb and you can clearly see the difference between nonpassing and passing hips, as well you can spot really excellent hips vs those which are passing but not that great.

And I have personal experience with owning a dog with bilateral hip dysplasia. Positioning did not make bad hips look good with him when I took him to a second vet to have hips redone.

2. Puppy buyers should have zero tolerance for breeders breeding dogs with elbow dysplasia. Unless the breeder intends to fully refund the puppy buyer for EVERY PUPPY who has elbow dysplasia, which that's totally different.

Doesn't matter if elbow conformation is one of those things which is not clearly understood, has to be checked/cleared every generation, and even good breeders produce maybe 1 pup out of a litter with perhaps 1 bad elbow. If those breeders can show a long history (go back 15-18 years that elbows have been one of the required clearances for the breed) of due diligence behind the parent dogs, that's bad luck vs blame on the breeder.

If the breeder is doing all clearances and making sure the dogs have normal elbows and at least fair (which are passing) hips, and are openly demonstrating they are doing do by publishing the results on OFA - they are reputable and a good place to purchase a puppy.

Good breeders are not just jumping hoops and twisting and turning and cutting corners in order to breed what they own. Good breeders are making painful decisions as needed when qualifying a dog for their breeding program.

I know somebody who neutered and placed a dog who was just shy of a grand championship because he failed hips. This is what good breeders do to improve their programs.

As well, I know of somebody who neutered and placed a stunning show pup who was missing a tooth. Again, this is what breeders do to improve their programs or avoid taking a step backwards in one area just to shore up a different area.

This is no comment on the above breeder who I have not looked into. This is in general and primarily comes from a place where I believe that before we tackle the really impossible battles of weeding out cancer (multi cause, including environmental and diet in the owner's home), it's important to handle the easy battles as a breeder. Am saying that as somebody who was ready to pull out of dog showing if my dog failed his clearances. As well, I had to turn other people away and or deliver the sad news that my other boy, who had a lot of breeders looking him up and very interested in him, failed his hips.
 

·
Kristy
Joined
·
10,013 Posts
Oh Promise Land Golden Retrievers - not where I would even consider buying a puppy. Purchasing your own dogs and becoming a breeder does not make your lack of documentation for your claims or lack of proper clearances for your dogs acceptable. I hope anyone researching this breeder asks for documentation on all these claims. She has provided absolutely no documentation or links to scientific research to back up her statements.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,822 Posts
Not only that, Promise Land is posting the same rhetoric on every thread she is mentioned on. The effort would be far better spent just getting the dogs' clearances and posting to OFA.
Not breeding dogs with ED or HD or anything else.
Learning what a correct dog looks like, so that if photos are used on your site, you may have to take 100 of them to get a good one, but just put the good one up- because as long as you are breeding only one thing really, a whitish coat color, you will not have excellence in your breeding program.
 

·
Puddles
Joined
·
4,020 Posts
I'm no breeder, in fact I don't know anything about any of the breeders in this thread. While I'm happy you are investing in genetics... don't know who you are using but I just had the golden ret. panel done on my golden at Paw Print Genetics and it took 2 weeks from the time I ordered the kit to the time results were received.

I would also like to read the documentation you have on the lower cancer in EC. I've looked but haven't seen any studies yet... would you share?
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Top