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Kate
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For that amount of money, you can probably do a whole lot better than that place. If you do not care about specifics, you may as well purchase a puppy from a byb for a couple hundred. When you have careless or belligerent practices by a breeder - there's really no difference between them and some people who bought some dog and decided to make puppies with whatever.

Good luck.
 

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Ask about health clearances. His dogs won't have any. You can verify this by getting the registered names of the sire and dam and looking them up on the OFA website. Health clearances are very different than being cleared by a veterinarian as being healthy. Do some research here on the forum about eye certification, hip and elbow clearances and heart clearances. The dogs that come from true reputable breeders cost more because the owners are paying for these clearances yearly, the pay to compete with their dogs in some venue to prove that they are true to the breed and conform to the standards. I don't know what your shelters are like but my local shelter only charges $250 for any breed of puppy and that includes spay/neuter and all vaccinations for the pups first year. This man is charging $550 for nothing. He is pocketing basically all of that and only breeds to sell puppies and make money. In no way is he following the golden retriever club of America's code of ethics by breeding only to improve the breed. I would never, ever pay even $100 for one of his puppies. I saved for a year to afford my golden because I knew how important health clearances are. Not to mention the expense and emotion stress of owning a dog with hereditary hip dysplasia.
 

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Esquire Golden Retrievers
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I don't have anything for you to ask him. You seem to know about health issues, and you don't care about registration or documentation, so it sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind, Jon. I'm not sure why you're asking us, actually.

But I do want to mention that I think you've missed the boat on one thing. It's this:

Obviously those who are registered, those who charge $1500 a dog are going to hate the guy, its quite simple. If he is selling them for $550 as he is now. That means people are likely to go to him vs paying $1500 ( at least those who dont have $1500 to spare )
That's just not true, at all. First of all, breeders charging $1500 per puppy are not competing with this guy. Those breeders don't need to. They all have waiting lists like crazy, and no matter how big a litter they can put on the ground, all those puppies are spoken for by multiple buyers. The demand for their puppies far exceeds the supply, because those buyers know the difference between what they are getting and what you'll be getting. For good breeders it's a matter of choosing which applicant to sell a puppy to. It is NOT a matter of trying to compete on price. Those breeders already sell all their puppies, sometimes before the pups are even born. This Allen Bain guy isn't even on their radar.

If they hate him, it's because he isn't breeding according to the code of ethics for Golden Retriever breeders, not because he's undercutting other breeders on price. It's a business for Bain, but it's not a business for most good breeders. For them it's a labor of love, and an effort to make the best, healthiest Goldens they can. Even at $1500 per puppy they often lose money. And they still do it, for the love of the breed, not for money.

Caveat emptor, Jon. You know what you're getting into. Go get your puppy from this guy and don't ask too many questions. Maybe you'll get lucky. I hope you do. But if you don't, you'll find out just how expensive that puppy really is.
 

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You raise some valid points from ONE perspective, and I will ask him that question.

But let's also bear in mind a couple of things so we don't blow this out of the water.

1. Because a person chooses to buy a dog from a reputable breeder who dot's the i's and crosses the t's that doesn't mean your dog isn't going to die at age 2, 3, or 4 from some health problem. In fact there are many people who buy from reputable dealers whos dogs have died before those who haven't

2. I also think we need to make a distinction between replies which are made because there is a DEEP concern for the HEALTH and SAFETY of dogs vs ( are you paying $1500 like I did, and getting it from a reputable dealer )

Listen, I get it. I really do. You could compare this to people who WON'T buy a fender strat guitar unless it is AMERICAN made. They have hissy fits and cry if they think for a moment you bought it and it was MEXICAN made.

Then there are those who even get their pants in a twist if they think for a second that you bought an AMERICAN strat ( which is what fender enthusiasts do prefer ) but you get it from a regular guitar dealer. Some won't buy from anyone BUT American Fender Established Dealers.

Why do they get so upset. Pretty simple really.

A. They paid out full price, and to think they could have got the same type of guitar for less, eats them up

B. They are snooty. They run with a crowd that doesn't let others play with them unless you have that certificate to show people that you bought American Fender, and it came from a Fender Dealer.

That's why I think it's important that we make a distinction between replies which are made because there is a DEEP concern for the HEALTH and SAFETY of dogs on this mans farn vs ( did you pay $1500 like I did, and did you get it from a reputable dealer, is it for show ?) As that type of discussion is bootstrapping and it tends to just go around in circles. Never mind it being egotistical.

The important matters here are: Health and Safety of dogs ( whether they are golden or any breed of that matter. Including mutts which are NO less a dog than a purebred )

So to keep this thread on track. Let's stick to what questions this man should be able to answer.
 

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Kate
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Hi, not sure I understand what part of your reply had a question that you want me to ask this man?
Based on everything I've read on this forum from people who have dealt with him or so on.... I would have no questions.

If anything, ask yourself why you are so set on purchasing a puppy from him despite everything you've read. And despite there being better quality breeders in your area.

Asking about registration is not going to get you anywhere in Canada, because as far as I remember reading elsewhere, the CKC does things differently than the AKC.

If I asked a breeder for registration numbers - I could look those numbers up on AKC.org to locate the dog and verify the dog was actually registered. CKC - there's really no easy way of looking dogs up.

Clearances is another issue - I'd love to see clearances going back several generations.... but again, CKC registered breeders did/do not always use the offa.org or other databases for clearances. So you really would have to see the clearances in person - if there are any.

These are issues I would clear up before ever going in person to see a breeder or a litter. Because once they get you inside the door, they can turn on the puppy charm + rush you to a decision to purchase a puppy.

As it is - if these dogs are $1500 bucks? You can buy a puppy from a reputable (meaning has a very good reputation among other breeders and is well known in the golden retriever community in a good way).... for about the same price.

So the question - I'd ask myself is why would it be worth pursuing a puppy from this guy given everything that people have said.

Does it come down to the price the guy is actually charging? Paying $500....
 

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Esquire Golden Retrievers
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You raise some valid points from ONE perspective, and I will ask him that question.

But let's also bear in mind a couple of things so we don't blow this out of the water.

1. Because a person chooses to buy a dog from a reputable breeder who dot's the i's and crosses the t's that doesn't mean your dog isn't going to die at age 2, 3, or 4 from some health problem. In fact there are many people who buy from reputable dealers whos dogs have died before those who haven't

2. I also think we need to make a distinction between replies which are made because there is a DEEP concern for the HEALTH and SAFETY of dogs vs ( are you paying $1500 like I did, and getting it from a reputable dealer )

Listen, I get it. I really do. You could compare this to people who WON'T buy a fender strat guitar unless it is AMERICAN made. They have hissy fits and cry if they think for a moment you bought it and it was MEXICAN made.

Then there are those who even get their pants in a twist if they think for a second that you bought an AMERICAN strat ( which is what fender enthusiasts do prefer ) but you get it from a regular guitar dealer. Some won't buy from anyone BUT American Fender Established Dealers.

Why do they get so upset. Pretty simple really.

A. They paid out full price, and to think they could have got the same type of guitar for less, eats them up

B. They are snooty. They run with a crowd that doesn't let others play with them unless you have that certificate to show people that you bought American Fender, and it came from a Fender Dealer.

That's why I think it's important that we make a distinction between replies which are made because there is a DEEP concern for the HEALTH and SAFETY of dogs on this mans farn vs ( did you pay $1500 like I did, and did you get it from a reputable dealer, is it for show ?) As that type of discussion is bootstrapping and it tends to just go around in circles. Never mind it being egotistical.

The important matters here are: Health and Safety of dogs ( whether they are golden or any breed of that matter. Including mutts which are NO less a dog than a purebred )

So to keep this thread on track. Let's stick to what questions this man should be able to answer.
Jon, if you're interested in health and safety of the dog, then you wouldn't buy a puppy that hasn't had several generations of clearances, whatever the price.

But you seem to think that anyone who pays $1500 for a dog, or who sells dogs for that much, is "snooty" or is involved in "ego." This really is nothing whatsoever like buying a guitar. It's more like adopting a child.

If you don't care about seeing health clearances, why are you here asking? Maybe I'm not understanding you.
 

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Based on everything I've read on this forum from people who have dealt with him or so on.... I would have no questions.

If anything, ask yourself why you are so set on purchasing a puppy from him despite everything you've read. And despite there being better quality breeders in your area.

Asking about registration is not going to get you anywhere in Canada, because as far as I remember reading elsewhere, the CKC does things differently than the AKC.

If I asked a breeder for registration numbers - I could look those numbers up on AKC.org to locate the dog and verify the dog was actually registered. CKC - there's really no easy way of looking dogs up.

Clearances is another issue - I'd love to see clearances going back several generations.... but again, CKC registered breeders did/do not always use the offa.org or other databases for clearances. So you really would have to see the clearances in person - if there are any.

These are issues I would clear up before ever going in person to see a breeder or a litter. Because once they get you inside the door, they can turn on the puppy charm + rush you to a decision to purchase a puppy.

As it is - if these dogs are $1500 bucks? You can buy a puppy from a reputable (meaning has a very good reputation among other breeders and is well known in the golden retriever community in a good way).... for about the same price.

So the question - I'd ask myself is why would it be worth pursuing a puppy from this guy given everything that people have said.

Does it come down to the price the guy is actually charging? Paying $500....
You raise some great points there and questions.

First off, I'm a dog lover and owner at heart. I am not a purebred lover.

In my mind a dog is a dog. ( actually probably more human and nicer than most humans )

Prior to contacting this man on Kijiji, which is actually the last place I would usually look. Our last dog came from the Humane Society. ( however currently there is a shortage of both adult and pups at our local one at the moment ) i began looking further a field.

Two other rescue places appear only to have husky/shepherd mixes

Im not keen on getting that type of dog.

I contacted about 6 or 7 labrador and retriever breeders in the area. Some didn't have any at that time, the ones who did wanted $1500. I don't have $1500 to pay for a dog. To me ( and this is my opinion ) $1500 is an outrageous amount to ask for a dog.

Our last dog from the Humane society cost $250. She lived 8 years, a wonderful dog she was.

I have been looking for a dog that is good with families. The retriever was one, as mentioned I saw his ad, I phoned him and spoke to him.

Believe me. If his dogs are being mistreated, not only will i not buy from him but I would report his property.

At this point online there is a mixture of love and hate for this guy. Those who have bought and had no problems and those who just hate him not because they have bought and had a bad experience when visiting his site but because he doesn't follow protocol. ( This is very much like Fender Die Hard Owners who won't buy Mexican or from a reputable Fender dealer, who i will say consider their guitars like babies )

Hope that explains it.
 

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Yeah, I don't get you at all Jonm. There is absolutely nobody on the forum that would NOT put health before sticker price and bragging rights. And it really is not about sticker price and bragging rights. It is about getting the healthiest pups and hoping to have them around for a long long time.
You have not been here long enough and obviously have not read enough to make those derogatory allegations. And obviously you made up your mind because you had a 'nice' conversation with a breeder that is more than questionable.

Go ahead, show us all, buy a puppy from this guy if it makes you happy. I wish you good luck and hope your puppy will be and stay healthy and live a long life.


BTW, a lot of us also have other breeds that were rescued, stray etc, so we are not golden snobs - we just care!
 

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....snip.....

Why do they get so upset. Pretty simple really.

A. They paid out full price, and to think they could have got the same type of guitar for less, eats them up

B. They are snooty. They run with a crowd that doesn't let others play with them unless you have that certificate to show people that you bought American Fender, and it came from a Fender Dealer.

That's why I think it's important that we make a distinction between replies which are made because there is a DEEP concern for the HEALTH and SAFETY of dogs on this mans farn vs ( did you pay $1500 like I did, and did you get it from a reputable dealer, is it for show ?) As that type of discussion is bootstrapping and it tends to just go around in circles. Never mind it being egotistical.

The important matters here are: Health and Safety of dogs ( whether they are golden or any breed of that matter. Including mutts which are NO less a dog than a purebred )

Eh..... My $350 rescue mutt runs with those "snooty" $1500 purebreds ALL the time and no one has been snooty, snobby, rude, or unwelcoming to us. Least of all simply because my mutt doesn't have registration or isn't a show quality dog.

If you're on a budget, why not reach out to the golden retriever rescues in your area? You can get a purebred or a mix for less than this "breeder" charges.

Every dog runs the risk of having health problems, yes. But reputable breeders do the ethically required testing to avoid as much health problems as possible.

My $350 mutt ended up costing me near $10,000 the first year cause he was structurally unsound and he torn BOTH his ACLs before he was a year old. Could that have happened on a $1500 puppy? Yes, but the chances are reduced since reputable and ethical breeders only breed to improve upon their stock (which means physical soundness is important). Furthermore, an ethical breeder would have most likely refunded me my purchase price when Bear tore his ACLs and it was found to be a genetic/physical problem.

Perhaps you should see what health guarantees or warranties he offers on his puppies, should they become sick. And see what restrictions it involves. Be wary if his warranty is null and void unless the puppy is diagnosed by his vet only.
 

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Esquire Golden Retrievers
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First off, I'm a dog lover and owner at heart. I am not a purebred lover.

In my mind a dog is a dog.

To me ( and this is my opinion ) $1500 is an outrageous amount to ask for a dog.

Our last dog from the Humane society cost $250. She lived 8 years, a wonderful dog she was.
Why don't you just buy a mutt off of Craigslist and be done with it?
 

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What about the person whom bought a dog from this "breeder" and then had it attack an elderly person and put them in the hospital as mentioned on the previous page? Shouldn't that make you think twice? That behavior is certainly not within the golden retriever standard.
 

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I've been meaning to ask you, how is Bear doing? Well, I hope! We must get together for a play date! :)

He is 100% better, and learned how to "dock dive" last month. We're still working on his courage. lol!!!

A play date is a must!!! I shockingly haven't met Ziva yet. *pout*
 

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Listen, I'm not saying that I will be buying from this man at all.

I'm just say that there is a difference between those who buy dogs because they want to SHOW them vs those who dont

If SHOWING a dog is your purpose, without a doubt, you are going to want to get a purebred, follow all the rules and blah blah.

If OWNING a dog is your purpose only, you aren't going to necessarily want a purebred or have them part of some elite society who turns their nose up at those who are not part of it.

Health, Safety, Care will be of concern, which brings me back full circle to saying that I will NEVER just buy a dog based on what some forum tells me to do or not to do, as forums are the least reliable places for determining truth.

I will base it on my own investigations.

And it probably will be the case that i will go with a MUTT, that is from a rescue.
 

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Esquire Golden Retrievers
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I'm just say that there is a difference between those who buy dogs because they want to SHOW them vs those who dont

If SHOWING a dog is your purpose, without a doubt, you are going to want to get a purebred, follow all the rules and blah blah.

If OWNING a dog is your purpose only, you aren't going to necessarily want a purebred or have them part of some elite society who turns their nose up at those who are not part of it.
Just out of curiosity, which category do you put the members of this forum in?

In fact, which category do you put me in? I have two show Golden Retrievers. I have two rescued Golden Retrievers. I also have a mutt I got from the pound. So, am I one who turns their nose up, or am I one of the good dog owners? Just curious how you make the distinction. You do seem to have an awful lot of things figure out.
 

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I bought my girl from a reputable breeder.
I'm not showing her so I don't really care about all of those Ch in her pedigree. But those Ch are a sign of a breeder that does things for the betterment of the breed.
I got her from a reputable breeder because I wanted my dog to have the deck stacked in her favor.

You are 100% right, there are no guarantees. But by getting a dog from a reputable breeder who has all of the health clearances (eyes, heart, hips, elbows) on their dogs before doing any breeding you are getting a dog that is statistically less likely to have problems that our breed is prone to. That's not being snobby, it's wanting the best for your dog.

A well bred dog is more expensive, but it is often cheaper in the long run not having to deal with things like hip displasia. Again, no guarantee, but it the parents have good hips (as declared by an outside authority) the pups are statistically less likely to have hip problems.

$1200 was ALOT of money for me. I saved up for her over several months. A dog is a (hopefully) 12 year investment, why not delay the puppy satisfaction for a few months and get a puppy with the deck stacked in its favor.
 

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Jonm, disagree with you. I have adopted mixed breed dogs and rescued a beagle when I was in vet school. Getting a purebred dog is not all about showing. For me, getting a purebred golden was about obtaining a dog whose temperament had some predictability, etc.. You can get that inexpensive golden... But you will likely get health issues with it...
 

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Jonm, disagree with you. I have adopted mixed breed dogs and rescued a beagle when I was in vet school. Getting a purebred dog is not all about showing. For me, getting a purebred golden was about obtaining a dog whose temperament had some predictability, etc.. You can get that inexpensive golden... But you will likely get health issues with it...
Sally's Mom I understand and I hear you. I agree that if a person wants predictability get a purebred. If they are fine with a bit of unpredictability get a mutt ( i love mutts )

And yes there is the possibility that an inexpensive golden will have health issues but there is the same possibility with an expensive one.

Why?

Because the moment that dog comes home they enter an environment that can effect it, and a world where they could be exposed to bad foods and a lack of treatment by an owner. All these play a role in why one dog lives longer than another ( not a certificate when they are first born, though that gives a buyer SOME peace of mind ).

A bit like buying a house. You can show me all the paperwork, but there is a lot of things that can be covered up or not mentioned or can occur years later because a lack of upkeep. Many factors play a role. Price is the least determining factor.
 
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