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BN and CD? Or straight to CD?

4881 Views 132 Replies 17 Participants Last post by  diane0905
My competition obedience class trainers today asked the class if anyone was planning on getting a BN or were there some going straight to CD.

I said CD and one said that’s what she did and the other said she trialed for her BN and CD on the same day.

What think ye? Y’all?
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I have one stronger contact lens and one weaker, which works great for reading and seeing at a distance.

I do, too! Maybe there is a link...although my aversion to the signs started before my goofed up two contact lens vision. 🤪
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You should absolutely do BN first. Of the three "intermediate" titles (BN, GN, GO) AKC added a few years ago, BN is, by far, the most useful. GO has its uses; GN is a complete waste of an entry fee. Almost all high-level trainers I know do BN first. It is a great way for you to truly assess where your dog is in a "safe" way. The dog has a leash attached at all times except for the short recall. That takes away the stress of worrying that your dog will leave the ring, although I have seen a dog or two make a break for it on the recall. Rare, because in the crowded, scary confines of a trial, most dogs go to their owner for security.

Coincidentally, I showed my youngster, Hawthorn, for the very first time last weekend. I showed him in BN one day and RN the second. Since it was his first time in the ring, I had someone video the BN run. He NQ'd on the recall. He came when the judge said "Call your dog" instead of waiting for me, but I didn't care about the NQ. I wanted him to have a good experience and I wanted to see how he reacted to the ring environment. My goal is an OTCH, not a BN.

Re: Not beginning to train Open until you have a Novice leg. OMG, that advice is so, so wrong, wrong, wrong. Whatever your highest training goal is, you train with that title in mind from day one, especially if you're working on OB titles. Novice Obedience is essentially heeling, with a couple of other minor things thrown in. It takes 6 months to a year to teach a competition level heel and you will be working on heeling for your dogs entire OB career. It takes about a year to teach the Open exercises well enough to compete with a decent score. It takes a year or two to teach the Utility exercises. If you teach the levels sequentially: A) your dog will be well into middle or old age before you finish Utility and B) You will be really bored with only teaching heeling for the first year. I suggest, at a minimum, picking two of the Open and one of the Utility exercises to work on while you're training for Novice. If you know for sure that your goal is at least UD, start working on those go-outs TODAY.

Hawthorn's first BN run. There is plenty to work on, but his attitude was good.

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You should absolutely do BN first. Of the three "intermediate" titles (BN, GN, GO) AKC added a few years ago, BN is, by far, the most useful. GO has its uses; GN is a complete waste of an entry fee. Almost all high-level trainers I know do BN first. It is a great way for you to truly assess where your dog is in a "safe" way. The dog has a leash attached at all times except for the short recall. That takes away the stress of worrying that your dog will leave the ring, although I have seen a dog or two make a break for it on the recall. Rare, because in the crowded, scary confines of a trial, most dogs go to their owner for security.

Coincidentally, I showed my youngster, Hawthorn, for the very first time last weekend. I showed him in BN one day and RN the second. Since it was his first time in the ring, I had someone video the BN run. He NQ'd on the recall. He came when the judge said "Call your dog" instead of waiting for me, but I didn't care about the NQ. I wanted him to have a good experience and I wanted to see how he reacted to the ring environment. My goal is an OTCH, not a BN.

Re: Not beginning to train Open until you have a Novice leg. OMG, that advice is so, so wrong, wrong, wrong. Whatever your highest training goal is, you train with that title in mind from day one, especially if you're working on OB titles. Novice Obedience is essentially heeling, with a couple of other minor things thrown in. It takes 6 months to a year to teach a competition level heel and you will be working on heeling for your dogs entire OB career. It takes about a year to teach the Open exercises well enough to compete with a decent score. It takes a year or two to teach the Utility exercises. If you teach the levels sequentially: A) your dog will be well into middle or old age before you finish Utility and B) You will be really bored with only teaching heeling for the first year. I suggest, at a minimum, picking two of the Open and one of the Utility exercises to work on while you're training for Novice. If you know for sure that your goal is at least UD, start working on those go-outs TODAY.

Hawthorn's first BN run. There is plenty to work on, but his attitude was good.

That was fun to watch. Hawthorn did well and looks happy!

They didn’t say not to train for Open. They just said not to sign up for their particular class until the dog has at least one in person title.

If this is the list of open exercises, Logan has practiced all but drop on recall.

I will ask them in the next class about trying for a BN. They weren’t discouraging it by any means. I think they just wanted to know our plans.

The first time I left Logan in a sit like that and walked the perimeter of the room, he was young and beside six other dogs in a line. I just knew he would break to try to visit, but he didn’t. They were laughing at how much I kept my eye on him. 🤪

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I agree with this.

When first taking classes with people who had dogs working on gloves and jumps in novice class, I remember being bewildered about WHY I would train these things if I didn't know if my dog would even get there. I believe that training for the higher levels can first take the mystery of what you got in your dog out of the equation.... and seeing the relationship between all 3 levels of obedience, it made sense training each of those exercises with the highest level in mind. And then some of the higher level exercises take a million reps before they are ring worthy....

I'm doing that a little with open signals with both my dogs - am either doing no verbals or quickly fading them. The benefit of that is when taking the open/utility classes as I am with Jovi, he can do the utility signals without any problem. I just have a slight quandary as to whether I want to practice the recall signal right now. I am not sure if it would cause problems with the open signals where I want a stay until I return....

@diane0905 - that is an old list. Open has been greatly changed because they got rid of the stays and replaced with command discrimination and a basic stand stay (dog does stand stay in center of the ring while you go get the leash from the ring entrance).
Oh. Yes. Thanks for the reminder. We worked on some command discrimination. It’s just been a bit and I’ve been more focused on what we are doing in this class. And on field training. And back on agility. :ROFLMAO:

I quickly googled because I’m heading out to visit my MIL.

I would have had to do that open class back to back with the one I’m in anyway and that would have been long for Logan.
I meant to also say you could join Obedience Road. That’s Connie’s online platform and she’s very interactive via new content — video instruction and webinars. She answers individual questions via videos also.
I'm on the waiting list and hopefully will get in and start in January.
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Rally... I do not think was ever intended to be an intro to regular obedience. It was more about giving people with retired dogs who could not jump full height something else to do rather than completely retire + they also wanted it to be a cross between obedience and agility. When it was initially introduced at the place where I trained, I'm not sure if the exercises were different at the start or what, but we had more exercises and jumps from agility set up on a rally course. You had more overt handling and talking allowed, etc.... which made it more difficult to then jump into novice because you were shaving away everything for the most part that made rally easier than regular obedience.

Now they have bumped up the difficulty in rally, so I'm not sure how it compares or leads into obedience.... other than people do have issues fading the handling and verbal praise/encouragement/etc from rally to regular obedience. There's people who might get a 100 in rally struggling to Q in the 170's.
Rally is supposed to be an introduction to Obedience. When you get to the Master level, there's obvious getting ready for Utility exercises in the mix. I can't stand how much talking is allowed. I have seen people leaning over their dogs begging them to do things in Master and getting good scores! I feel there should be deductions for excessive handling. A dog that is excessively handled and accidently does things should never receive a better score than a dog who is held to a much higher standard and makes one mistake. (It's happened to me) Most people in Rally would struggle in Obedience.

Does Pilot get it all perfect? Heck no! But he is held to Obedience standards in the Rally ring!
Following this thread. I would LOVE to get into OB but am high-anxiety and Colt responds to my stress by running off to visit the judge. We’ve been getting a lot better but it is slow progress. We’re doing Rally Intermediate in November and I’ve considered entering BN but get cold feet when I stare at the premium. I might need to have a couple of you review a video or two of us practicing the course 🤣
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Following this thread. I would LOVE to get into OB but am high-anxiety and Colt responds to my stress by running off to visit the judge. We’ve been getting a lot better but it is slow progress. We’re doing Rally Intermediate in November and I’ve considered entering BN but get cold feet when I stare at the premium. I might need to have a couple of you review a video or two of us practicing the course 🤣
I’m sure many would be happy to look at your videos. I would for sure!

I used to have terrible stage fright — like knees shaking — and I forced myself to do a couple of fitness contests where I had to get on a stage in a bikini and hooker heels. Lolol My knees WERE shaking before I headed out, but at that moment it was sink or swim and I swam.

That was just me though — I’m sure a dog notices when their owner handler is nervous. I say prepare yourself and just go out there and do it. (I have not yet, so take that advice for what it is. Hahaha It sounds like you have more experience than I do.) I figure that’s the best way to conquer the nerves. When I’ve volunteered, people seemed real kind to the people who didn’t do as well.

I think my biggest fear of my dog going to visit a judge would be in agility because they are so amped up. In field training, he’s free and running away from me also, but he likes the duck more than the gunners so far And seems proud to bring it back to me. That being said, I do sense a difference in how Logan behaves somewhat if he is in a wide open space than when he is in a room full of other dogs. He’s getting much better the older he gets and the more he is exposed to the atmosphere.

If you’d like any more advice from an inexperienced person, I’m here. :ROFLMAO:
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I’m sure many would be happy to look at your videos. I would for sure!

I used to have terrible stage fright — like knees shaking — and I forced myself to do a couple of fitness contests where I had to get on a stage in a bikini and hooker heels. Lolol My knees WERE shaking before I headed out, but at that moment it was sink or swim and I swam.

That was just me though — I’m sure a dog notices when their owner handler is nervous. I say prepare yourself and just go out there and do it. (I have not yet, so take that advice for what it is. Hahaha It sounds like you have more experience than I do.) I figure that’s the best way to conquer the nerves. When I’ve volunteered, people seemed real kind to the people who didn’t do as well.

I think my biggest fear of my dog going to visit a judge would be in agility because they are so amped up. In field training, he’s free and running away from me also, but he likes the duck more than the gunners so far And seems proud to bring it back to me. That being said, I do sense a difference in how Logan behaves somewhat if he is in a wide open space than when he is in a room full of other dogs. He’s getting much better the older he gets and the more he is exposed to the atmosphere.

If you’d like any more advice from an inexperienced person, I’m here. :ROFLMAO:
Agility is our biggest issue with visiting, but because he’s amped— in OB he visits as a stress avoidance lol. I appreciate the advice!
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In a "this could be your dog too" fashion, just sharing that my Gleezy got his BN title today, finishing with a 196 score. He had a 199 score (almost perfect) until the end when I called him to front and he ended up trying to do an auto-finish before remembering to come back up in front and sat very crooked. He lost 3 points there, but all in all was very pleased with the run and after he gets his insurance leg in a show already entered, planning to bump him up to novice and see about getting his CD completed this year. Maybe.

Regarding should you enter BN or not.. if your dog is running to visit the judge in training, then you know what you need to proof and work on right now to eliminate prior to entering him. But working through this problem - it means a matter of weeks to fix - and entering enough fun matches and drop in obedience classes with trainers who know what you are trying to stop from happening.
Congratulations! Pretty boy. He looks so sweet sitting there with his ribbons.

After reading everyone’s comments, I am definitely going to talk to my trainers about doing a BN first. Logan has not run off to visit people in training since he was younger, but I will certainly not say it could never happen. He had a young Golden Retriever visit him at our last class — very excitedly when we were practicing fronts off lead — and easily called away from him to front, so that’s a good sign (I hope.) :D
Following this thread. I would LOVE to get into OB but am high-anxiety and Colt responds to my stress by running off to visit the judge. We’ve been getting a lot better but it is slow progress. We’re doing Rally Intermediate in November and I’ve considered entering BN but get cold feet when I stare at the premium. I might need to have a couple of you review a video or two of us practicing the course 🤣
Well, a few thousand NQs in Open and Utility will get you past the stage fright <g>.

I have taught college classes and given presentations to fellow scientists, who make a tough, critical crowd. I've never been as nervous at those types of public appearances as I have been at showing dogs. Why? Because, in a "normal" type of public appearance, it's just you, and you know what you can and will do. Your canine partner is an unpredictable wild card who might (in your imagination at least) take off to chase a squirrel, grab a hot dog from a kid, etc.

Besides showing a gazillion times, there are two things I found most useful at calming nerves: 1) a pre-ring routine and 2) confidence in your dog.

The pre-ring routine will help calm your nerves and your dog's nerves and will make it clear to the dog that, no matter that he's never trained in that particular venue, he will know what is coming and what his job is. When you train at home, try to make it a habit to always or almost always, do your pre-ring routine at the start of training. I would even suggest putting your dog in a crate next your training area. You will always be taking your dog out of the crate just before your class at a show. You pre-ring routine should have 4 parts and take about 2 or 3 minutes, max:
a) Gathering your stuff. Tell your dog (in his crate) that his turn is coming up. Pick up your leash. Check your armband (or pretend armband). Get the treats for that class out and put them on top of the crate or your chair.
b) Site familiarity: Get dog out of crate. Be excited. "Time to rock and roll, buddy!" Attach leash. Walk him briefly around to let him do a little gawking, but NO SNIFFING. Don't allow any sniffing during training or when you are getting ready for a run. He can sniff on his own time when you're airing him or after his run. An experienced dog will "tell" you when he's ready by ignoring the surroundings and focusing on you. My old, experienced boy doesn't need much, if any site familiarity. He knows what's coming and turns his attention to me right away.
c) Warm-up exercises and tricks: Low-stress exercises to get him moving. Spins, circles, a straight line heel, whatever. Things he can do for a quick treat.
d) Ring entry: Don't crowd the ring entry. Hang back 10 or 20 feet, if possible. As you see the judge is getting close to calling you in, make sure your dog is sitting at your side in heel position and looking at you. When the judge calls you, heel into the ring.

At a show, keep your attention on your dog. You do NOT need to look at the judge, so don't. You can answer the judge's questions ("Are you ready?" "We're ready.") without looking away from your dog. In practice, if you're alone, you can speak both the judge's and your parts.

Go through your pre-ring routine every time you train and you will find that, in a show, the routine will help calm you down. Time your routine so you know how long it will take. Plan to get your dog out of his crate when the prior dog has a couple of minutes left in his run.

The other big nerve-calmer is having confidence in your dog that he will pay attention to you in a distracting environment. This is very tough for beginners, as most have no idea how much proofing is needed. You should be able to go to a park or shopping center, air your dog (give him a little walk), put him up, wait a few minutes, take him back out of your car or crate, go through your ring routine, have him focused on you within a minute, and able to do a focused heel pattern in that distracting environment without you having to remind him to pay attention and without any luring or bribing. It won't happen overnight.
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I appreciate this post so much as I've been wondering the same too. My trainer also recommended me to start with rally just to get that ring experience but I agree with the whole not loving the signs. I also have strong contact lens prescriptions and I just don't have the patience to learn. Do you think it would be okay to just jump into and skip rally? Also what's the difference with Beginner Novice A and Beginner Novice B?
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Per the above graph - if you have never titled a dog in AKC obedience, you for sure enter BN A.

After that it is progressive and timing related.

Difference? Not much difference at novice levels of obedience other than in B classes, you compete directly against very experienced trainers. Nothing else is different. The patterns are typically the same in both A and B and the judge does not alter how they score.

As you get into the higher levels like Open or Utility, most untitled dogs compete at the A level with exceptions (trainer's choice + if somebody has gotten an OTCH before they are kicked out of the A levels completely).

With open and utility B, they start mixing up the order of exercises to make it more difficult for the dogs - this is because majority of dogs competing in B have already gotten their titles in those levels, but are continuing to compete while pursuing UDX titles (you have to qualify in both open and utility in the same trial) and pursuing "wins" + points to get the CH title with their dogs. Or like I said above, the trainers are OTCH trainers.

Regarding rally vs obedience - one key thing to keep in mind is that once you have titled in regular obedience with your specific dog and decide to go back to rally with the same dog.... you lose the opportunity to compete in the A classes in rally. You must enter and compete in B classes. With the specific dog. The interesting thing for me was recently learning that rally does not put dogs in A or B based on the handler's experience. It's primarily based on the dog's title history.

Is it confusing? Yep.

Would it be better to do rally or regular novice if you struggle with following a course + having to learn a variety of exercises that may or may not be what you actually do in the ring (ie, always a surprise what kind of course you get, what exercises you do as with rally) - DO regular obedience. Even Beginner Novice would be preferable, because even though you have signs on the floor in front of you to follow, you will never be asked to do anything except heel your dog, demonstrate a clean left turn, right turn, about turn, change pace twice (fast and slow), and show your dog had sit cleanly when you stop. These are the only commands/skills you need to teach your dog and expect to do when you enter beginner novice. You will never be asked to do any maneuvers, doodles, etc... or have to figure out what a sign means (if you perform the sign incorrectly it is a 10 point penalty), etc.
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My competition obedience class trainers today asked the class if anyone was planning on getting a BN or were there some going straight to CD.

I said CD and one said that’s what she did and the other said she trialed for her BN and CD on the same day.

What think ye? Y’all?

I think it completely depends on the dog you have, no hard fast rules in my book, what are your goals? I like to train long and trial short. My dogs are trained several levels above where they need to be the first time I enter the ring. Train the dog in front of you and have fun 😊
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I think it completely depends on the dog you have, no hard fast rules in my book, what are your goals? I like to train long and trial short. My dogs are trained several levels above where they need to be the first time I enter the ring. Train the dog in front of you and have fun 😊
Thank you. I suppose I need to think more about long term goals. Being new at all of this, I’ve been doing a sampler platter of sorts as far as what we are training to title in. I’ve been hoping I can get Logan‘s novice titles — which for us in my head are these in this order WC (GRCA), JH, CD sometime in his three year old year and his NA (probably this spring — maybe later.) We got a late pandemic start and I’m green to all of this.

I think we had about 7 months total of training in my first obedience class and I’m on my third six week session in the new class — with about a four month break in between the two schools. The first one stopped giving classes and I had to find a new one. We’ve been in agility probably about a year — we take summer breaks due to the heat here. Logan can run a novice agility course. We started field training this past November — also taking a summer break because of how hot it gets here. So, we’re getting there and keep training even when not going to the classes in the summer. I also go to our local obedience club to use their training building and we head to the mountains in the summer so it’s a bit cooler and we can train outdoors. I’ve only been able to group train in field once (Logan did well!), but I’ve been working on finding more training groups and now we have another Golden training with us for our weekly training sessions with my instructor.

When people have been mentioning OTCH in this thread, I’ve been snorting a little laughing in my head because at the moment I’m wanting to be able to get his CD (and I guess BN first based on advice here) without me spontaneously combusting in the ring. 😅 We do have a lot of fun. I’m being silly about the spontaneous combustion (mostly.)

As for my dog, he’s great and would certainly be titled already with a more experienced handler.
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I think this applies.

Also vague observation.... let's assume you have a ladder going one way, another ladder going a different way, and yet another going another completely different way. In order to climb each ladder, you have to climb down the previous one and reclimb that when you are ready to go back, etc... you are going to get tired out and not even reach halfway up any of the ladders.


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