[zephyr]

Our Oscar is 4 and 1/2 months old now, and we've been battling an apparent bladder infection in him for over a month now... but after hearing back from the vet today, I'm totally baffled, so I wanted to run our story by you guys!

Okay so Oscar's symptoms started maybe over a month ago, when his housetraining seemed to be hitting a wall-- he was urinating reliably outside, but would often have strange indoor accidents, like peeing while lying down on his bed or carpet, and lying down at the vet's office (tile floor). The vet suspected a bladder infection, and yes, the urine sample they analyzed confirmed "a major infection" based on bacteria seen under the microscope. They placed him on a 3 week course of antibiotics (don't remember which kind, but it was a big red pill every 12 hours), which we finished completely.

However, those same symptoms (peeing lying down, sometimes not being able to hold it for more than 1/2 hour) were seemingly lingering, and the vet analyzed another urine sample about 6 days after the last antibiotics were finished to check the infection's progress. This sample showed that the infection was apparently still there, based on "many white blood cells" (?) in the microscopic analysis -- so they drew yet another urine sample directly from the bladder to use for an actual bacterial culture test, because they suspected that whatever the pathogen was, it was not whatever normal bacteria responds to the general antibiotic they originally prescribed.

WELL they called today with the results of the culture: and now they say that he "does not have a bladder infection" at all, because nothing grew from the culture (over a week long)! So now I am totally baffled!!!

SO... The vet says maybe he never had an infection (or just a minor one??), and he is actually suffering from some urinary inflammation (I guess that relates to the white blood cells?)... possibly related to urinary structure (maybe poor structure, a growth issue...?)... or I'm thinking (though they didn't say this) it could be a hormonal thing as well? :uhoh: I'm so confused! :no: They are hoping maybe if it is structural somehow, he will get better as he grows a bit older... however, now they are also saying maybe it is "all" behavioral -- but I'm not exactly sure how to progress with his pottytraining any "differently" than we are already doing.

Anybody have any thoughts? We are baffled! I am trying to research urinary inflammation in male puppies... and possibly some natural anti-inflammatory remedies... but I know you guys always have good ideas...! There is obviously a behavioral component to all this, but I'm not sure if we should be pursuing the urinary infection route further... maybe the culture was wrong?... or the inflammation... oh dear!

 

[Finn's Fan]

I don't think a puppy not being able to hold his urine for more than a half hour is behavioral, and having him pee while he's lying on his side sounds purely physical to me. He hasn't been neutered yet, has he? I have known of puppies who've had botched neuters, resulting in incontinence. Is there a vet school near you? I think I'd skip your regular vet and see a specialist at this point. If it's structural, no amount of potty training will work, and that would frustrate both you and the pup. Good luck getting to the bottom of this and sorry you're going through such a mystery.

 

[zephyr]

I don't think a puppy not being able to hold his urine for more than a half hour is behavioral, and having him pee while he's lying on his side sounds purely physical to me. He hasn't been neutered yet, has he? I have known of puppies who've had botched neuters, resulting in incontinence. Is there a vet school near you? I think I'd skip your regular vet and see a specialist at this point. If it's structural, no amount of potty training will work, and that would frustrate both you and the pup. Good luck getting to the bottom of this and sorry you're going through such a mystery.

Nope he has not been neutered; we are planning on waiting until at least a year old for that.

The weird thing is SOMETIMES he doesn't even make it half an hour, but other times he is totally fine for 4+ hours... and at night, he has his last potty break around midnight, and is totally fine until 8 or 9am. It's more activity that seems to mean he won't be able to "hold it", or he makes several small pees at a time -- originally that's what made us suspect bladder infection in the first place.

Some days he is normal 4 month old puppy, then other days he will pee lying down or near the door... which is why something behavioral might also be an option... but it's so inconsistent that it seems like there is something else going on, and all the vet confusion is not helping obviously :doh:

Thanks for the advice & good wishes!!!! we might definitely end up at a specialist if things don't improve in the near future.

 

[zephyr]

Oh I just thought of something else (obviously this is totally on my mind!): the vet suggested maybe his peeing-while-lying-down is Oscar's version of "hiding" his pee from us in the house... because originally it started when we found that he had peed himself while lying down in his doggie bed, and he would just lick it up. However, I've also read elsewhere about the "diaper effect" that bedding/soft surfaces can have for some dogs: i.e., they don't mind peeing on that surface because it gets "absorbed"...

BUT, as Oscar has also done this on hard floors as well (also sometimes lying down, sometimes standing up), I'm not sure either of those explanations is his issue... It's more like incontinence, where he can't "hold it in" or doesn't realize he has to go until it's too late, then he "cleans up" after himself.

However, as it is NOT happening even daily... that seems a little too infrequent for "incontinence" per se??

Oy-- thanks for listening to me ramble!!

 

[mylissyk]

Peeing while lying down is totally involuntary, even though it's not consistent, it is an incontinence problem. Has he ever had a sonogram of his bladder and kidneys? That would be something to have done to see if there might be bladder/kidney stones. I agree with the suggestion to find a vet college or urinary specialist to examine him.

 

[BeauShel]

bumping up

 

[CarolinaCasey]

I'd seek a 2nd Opinion. Not that your vet isn't being diligent, but sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can help. It almost sounds like when he's laying down, he puts pressure on his penis that may trigger the accident?!

 

[christyp]

What ever happened with Oscar? We are having similar issues with our dog, Carly. She's 12 weeks and we've been battling something for 3 weeks. We've been to 3 different vets about this issue and they keep giving her more antibiotics. This is her last round then we have to do more major tests. But, we have the same as you, lots of crystals and lots of white blood cells. If she's awake she has to go out every half an hour, and even then she'll go and then come in and pee in 10 mins. Yet, if she's in her crate she can go 4 hours during the day, and she's always gone from 9PM-7AM with no issues since we brought her home. No accidents in her crate at all, yet if she's up in the house she's peeing very frequently. So, your diagnosis may really help us. I hope Oscar is doing better by now.

 

[Maxs Mom]

What ever happened with Oscar? We are having similar issues with our dog, Carly. She's 12 weeks and we've been battling something for 3 weeks. We've been to 3 different vets about this issue and they keep giving her more antibiotics. This is her last round then we have to do more major tests. But, we have the same as you, lots of crystals and lots of white blood cells. If she's awake she has to go out every half an hour, and even then she'll go and then come in and pee in 10 mins. Yet, if she's in her crate she can go 4 hours during the day, and she's always gone from 9PM-7AM with no issues since we brought her home. No accidents in her crate at all, yet if she's up in the house she's peeing very frequently. So, your diagnosis may really help us. I hope Oscar is doing better by now.

This sounds like a UTI (urinary tract infection) not bladder IMO. Female dogs are prone to UTI's because of the style in which the pee. They get the bacteria externally and bring it in. My Teddi had issues with these over a year or so. Off and on antibiotics...A couple things you can do to see if allieviates your issues: cranberry supplements have been known to help lower the acidity in the urine. We also trimmed Teddi's hair around her vulva to keep hair from getting dirty and pulling inside her. She also has an extra flap of skin. I forget what it is called. It is rather common, had we known at the time of her spay it could have been fixed. UTI's can be a pain, they need to go a lot, sometimes they squat and nothing comes out. I am sure they are not comfortable. KNOCK ON WOOD Teddi seems to have outgrown hers. We have not had one since last June (SSHHHH). Crytals are usually part of a UTI.

Ann

 

[marshab1]

What ever happened with Oscar? We are having similar issues with our dog, Carly. She's 12 weeks and we've been battling something for 3 weeks. We've been to 3 different vets about this issue and they keep giving her more antibiotics. This is her last round then we have to do more major tests. But, we have the same as you, lots of crystals and lots of white blood cells. If she's awake she has to go out every half an hour, and even then she'll go and then come in and pee in 10 mins. Yet, if she's in her crate she can go 4 hours during the day, and she's always gone from 9PM-7AM with no issues since we brought her home. No accidents in her crate at all, yet if she's up in the house she's peeing very frequently. So, your diagnosis may really help us. I hope Oscar is doing better by now.

Yep Tinkerbell ahd the same problem as a puppy. And when I watched closely, when she squatted to pee, she was actually sitting in it, no wonder we had a problem. And unfortunately they can be pretty persisitant. It more often than not takes more than 1 round of antibiotics to completely clear it up.

 

[amy22]

My daughters 6 month old pup is battling a UTI and has been for the last 6 weeks...or maybe its longer..they can be hard to get rid of. Misty had one for more than 2 months before it went away.
I hope you find an explaination and solution for this.

 

[Penny & Maggie's Mom]

Peeing while lying down is totally involuntary, even though it's not consistent, it is an incontinence problem. Has he ever had a sonogram of his bladder and kidneys? That would be something to have done to see if there might be bladder/kidney stones. I agree with the suggestion to find a vet college or urinary specialist to examine him.

I agree Melissa... along with full blood work.

 

[Dallas Gold]

I agree Melissa... along with full blood work.

I too agree. We faced this a few weeks ago with our senior cancer patient Barkley--little leakage while resting. The very first thing they did was an xray of the abdomen, bladder and kidneys, as well as a full blood profile. They were planning on ordering a sonogram but decided it wasn't necessary at that time based on the results of the x-ray and blood work. In our case, it turns out if was purely a geriatric issue and we just needed to be more diligent in giving him an opportunity to relieve himself before bedtime. It wasn't a behavioral issue though, but a parental awareness issue.:doh: We had been so used to him going out on his own before bedtime through his doggie door that we didn't notice he stopped doing this.

 

[zephyr]

What ever happened with Oscar? We are having similar issues with our dog, Carly. She's 12 weeks and we've been battling something for 3 weeks. We've been to 3 different vets about this issue and they keep giving her more antibiotics. This is her last round then we have to do more major tests. But, we have the same as you, lots of crystals and lots of white blood cells. If she's awake she has to go out every half an hour, and even then she'll go and then come in and pee in 10 mins. Yet, if she's in her crate she can go 4 hours during the day, and she's always gone from 9PM-7AM with no issues since we brought her home. No accidents in her crate at all, yet if she's up in the house she's peeing very frequently. So, your diagnosis may really help us. I hope Oscar is doing better by now.

Oops, sorry, totally missed this!

I'm happy (but sorry, because it's not very helpful to you) to say that Oscar has been accident-free for about 3 months now! (since about 6 months old) We slooowly increased the time between taking him outside during the day, and he had fewer and fewer accidents over time, and then eventually it was extremely infrequent... and then, none! (KNOCK ON WOOD) I think the last time he peed inside (yes, lying down :doh was when he was exhausted after playing with his doggie friend inside their house and was lying down in their kitchen, when he was around 6 months old.

So I'm STILL not really sure exactly what was wrong, or if it was something like "immature bladder" or something where he was structurally not mature enough to realize he had to pee, and then he grew out of it. Of course I can't rule out some kind of infection or stones... but as he's totally fine now, I'm just not sure!!

Sorry that isn't very helpful!! Don't be discouraged, I'm SURE there is an answer... like the other said, blood work and more antibiotics might be needed? (However I will say that Oscar was definitely having many accidents in the house at 12 weeks, which I don't think was related to any bladder infection... he just never seemed to "get it" that he wasn't supposed to pee in the house, although he seemed to know not to pee in his crate. The peeing while lying down and the occasional accident in the crate actually started later. And he would always pee every time you took him outside (on leash), and was very excited to get his treats and praise... that didn't stop the accidents inside of course :doh

And in reference to some others mentioning "leakage" while lying down in their dogs -- I just wanted to clarify that I don't think you could really describe what Oscar was doing as leakage... since it was always total bladder emptying. :uhoh: He was never "wet" down there at other times, that we ever saw anyway. I don't know exactly what that implies about his "condition"(?)... but I think that means it was a different situation than dogs who are continually or frequently leaking urine, IMO.

I hope Carly is feeling better soon!! I'll be following her story.

 

[wenryder]

Oops, sorry, totally missed this!

I'm happy (but sorry, because it's not very helpful to you) to say that Oscar has been accident-free for about 3 months now! (since about 6 months old) We slooowly increased the time between taking him outside during the day, and he had fewer and fewer accidents over time, and then eventually it was extremely infrequent... and then, none! (KNOCK ON WOOD) I think the last time he peed inside (yes, lying down :doh was when he was exhausted after playing with his doggie friend inside their house and was lying down in their kitchen, when he was around 6 months old.

So I'm STILL not really sure exactly what was wrong, or if it was something like "immature bladder" or something where he was structurally not mature enough to realize he had to pee, and then he grew out of it. Of course I can't rule out some kind of infection or stones... but as he's totally fine now, I'm just not sure!!

Hi ALi,

I'm glad I found your post. We've been facing something similar with Obie. About 2 months ago, he was treated for a UTI which we discovered through frequent peeing. Antibiotics seemed to clear it up ok. Last week while at the vet, he had an accident on the table and the vet was concerned it was quite diluted. He drinks a lot of water (I've mentioned in other posts that I hate the idea of restricting water, if he's thirsty, let him drink!) They ran a urine culture as well as an x-ray (she convinced me because of the UTI from before, that it might be something physical with his kidneys or bladder) and the xray results came back inconclusive. She then started insisting on a blood test and ultrasound, thinking it might be hormonal, but I declined all of this. We did do another culture this time around, and it turns out he's got another UTI (Different bacteria this time) and is back on antibiotics.

My gut tells me he pees a lot because he drinks pretty frequently, and pees often because he's only 4 months and probably not fully developed yet. Your post makes me feel a little better about my decision. By no means is he dehydrated, and his housetraining has been successful, even though he still pees about 6 times a day. We make it outside 95% of the time (a few setbacks ATM with the UTI) but overall, he asks to go out! Plus, the accidents usually happen during playtime or if waiting to go out and I don't notice right away, and he tries so hard to hold it or manages to stop until we get outside.

 

[ActionJackson]

My 4 month old male is battling a UTI also.....has been for about 6 weeks. The only reason we spotted it early on was due to our diligence in potty training and his pee schedule. We are now on our second round of 3-week antibiotics. These pills are MUCH bigger now since he has grown significantly (or maybe the vet is just trying to really kick the infection's butt!).

It's frustrating because it hinders our ability to properly potty train him. And it's alarming that he has it as a male - those are very difficult to get rid of.

I just don't understand how he picked it up at the ripe old age of 10 weeks old

 

[wenryder]

For some reason, I decided to look up diluted urine on google, and got a little stressed over kidney disease and renal failure. He doesn't have any trouble with holding it during the night, nor is there "leakage"... only the frequency and diluted urine. He is currently on antibiotics (day 2) for a UTI....... Should I be concerned about his kidneys????????

 

[zephyr]

Hi ALi,

I'm glad I found your post. We've been facing something similar with Obie. About 2 months ago, he was treated for a UTI which we discovered through frequent peeing. Antibiotics seemed to clear it up ok. Last week while at the vet, he had an accident on the table and the vet was concerned it was quite diluted. He drinks a lot of water (I've mentioned in other posts that I hate the idea of restricting water, if he's thirsty, let him drink!) They ran a urine culture as well as an x-ray (she convinced me because of the UTI from before, that it might be something physical with his kidneys or bladder) and the xray results came back inconclusive. She then started insisting on a blood test and ultrasound, thinking it might be hormonal, but I declined all of this. We did do another culture this time around, and it turns out he's got another UTI (Different bacteria this time) and is back on antibiotics.

My gut tells me he pees a lot because he drinks pretty frequently, and pees often because he's only 4 months and probably not fully developed yet. Your post makes me feel a little better about my decision. By no means is he dehydrated, and his housetraining has been successful, even though he still pees about 6 times a day. We make it outside 95% of the time (a few setbacks ATM with the UTI) but overall, he asks to go out! Plus, the accidents usually happen during playtime or if waiting to go out and I don't notice right away, and he tries so hard to hold it or manages to stop until we get outside.

I'm so sorry you're going through a similar situation, it was really quite frustrating! But Oscar is still doing great We haven't had any accidents since that last time I posted about previously. Woo-hoo!

I definitely think Oscar peed more than 6x a day at 4 months old, so it sounds to me like Obie is doing pretty well in terms of holding it (at least compared to Oscar). From your description it sounds similar in terms of when his accidents would happen (tired, after playing, etc). He even peed lying down at the vet's office at least one time :doh:

Looking back over all these suggestions, we probably should've done the bloodwork, just to give ourselves peace of mind that it wasn't something else besides "immaturity". But based on his obvious progress as he aged, I doubt it would've made any difference to his improvement. So maybe I'd suggest doing it just for that reason -- and even if it's inconclusive, I would definitely think that Obie will start improving soon, as he matures.

Good luck, and try to keep calm (because I know how frustrated we would get, arrrgh)... I really think things will improve soon! :wavey:

P.S. We did not restrict water during the day (except we didn't have any water bowl in his crate when he was younger, though he was never left alone for very long at that age). We did take up the water bowl a couple hours before bedtime, but from a very young age he was "holding it" throughout the whole night so I'm not sure we really needed to do that.

 

[DaisyGolden]

I just saw this thread and thought I'd tell you all about my problems with Jenny. Jenny kept getting infections with crystals in her urine and would also pee when laying down sometimes even when she wasn't sleeping. When she had the infections should would go outside to pee really often and sometimes have accidents in the house. Jenny is 8 so she has been potty trained since she was a puppy and never had accidents in the house until she started getting these infections. We had to take her to the vet so many times I felt really sorry for her. Our vet thought that changing her food might help, so we tried all different kinds and we finally hit on one that worked Natural Balance LID it's wheat free so we think that she was having a reaction to wheat and that was causing the infections. Since she has been eating this food she hasn't had an infection and it's been months. I can't tell you how happy I am that this was such an easy fix and I really didn't think that changing her food could really help but it did. I just thought this might be something that some of you with this problem could try, I still can't believe that something so simple solved her infection problems. I hope that all of your dogs get better, I know how bad we feel when our babies are sick and we can't seem to fix it.