[Shadowboxer]

*I posted this in the behaviors section but haven't heard from anyone...maybe I should post it here?*

Bite inhibition...
Hey all, I've been perusing a bit over the last couple of weeks getting ready to bring our puppy home next Friday. As the big day approaches, I find myself getting more and more nervous! One thing I am trying to figure out a plan for is the puppy-biting that I know we will be dealing with. I've seen some posts mention bite inhibition, but I haven't actually seen someone describe the process...I'm probably being dense here, but can someone explain it for me? Thanks so much! :wave:

 

[NuttinButGoldens]

The basics:

1. Don't encourage it. Don't let kids play "grab the hand" with the pup.

2. Have plenty of toys available to stuff in their mouths when they get over-zealous (and they will).

3. Wear Armor LOL

 

[jenlaur]

Our pup is just over 13 weeks. She finally stopped biting about 1 1/2 week ago. We worked with her very consistently on it. Puppy teeth are very sharp! Each time we would say, "No biting!" and either stop playing or redirect her to a toy. She still gets us every once in a while during play but she is much more aware of it now. If we say, "Ouch!" she immediately backs off. Golden Retrievers are major sharks. But they can't be dealt with. It just takes patience - lots of patience! Good luck.

 

[Shadowboxer]

Thanks guys!

 

[NuttinButGoldens]

BTW.... Smooshed plastic Pepsi Bottles (NOT WATER BOTTLES) make a great, free toy that really helps with Teething.

 

[LuckyPup]

Just out of curiousity why Pepsi bottles and not water bottles?

Good Luck with the puppy biting. I am learning myself. But I will say that switching out toys every other day has been a big help! Lucky gets bored with his toys quite easily!

 

[Nicole74]

We would yell out a very big yelp when Bailey would bite us. Once she had a softer bite is when we taught her no bite. It took us two weeks for her to stop biting us and we were very consistant with it. The kids also have a large stuffed toy in their hand when they ran with her, she would bite the toy instead of their clothes.

 

[avincent52]

Bite inhibition is a specific concept. It's not about keeping your dog from biting (which comes later) but teaching your puppy *how* to bite. He/she needs to understand that there's a difference between your hand and a tennis ball and that under no circumstances should she bite with full force on human skin.
Here's an Ian Dunbar article that explains both the theory and implementation.

http://www.roycroftcavaliers.com/manualbiteinhibitionarticle.htm

 

[garyfdl]

*I posted this in the behaviors section but haven't heard from anyone...maybe I should post it here?*

Bite inhibition...
Hey all, I've been perusing a bit over the last couple of weeks getting ready to bring our puppy home next Friday. As the big day approaches, I find myself getting more and more nervous! One thing I am trying to figure out a plan for is the puppy-biting that I know we will be dealing with. I've seen some posts mention bite inhibition, but I haven't actually seen someone describe the process...I'm probably being dense here, but can someone explain it for me? Thanks so much! :wave:

The previous posts are all good advice. We would (and will be again, starting Tuesday) yell: OWW! OUCH! or NO! ... loud enough to startle the pup, and then redirect them.

You should also know that there are two types of biting, play and aggression. It's not always easy to tell them apart, and IMO, they should be dealt with differently. Play biting can be corrected with a stern command and redirecting. But play biting can become aggression if the pup gets carried away. That's why play biting should always be discouraged.

REPOST

I STAND CORRECTED.

DESPITE HAVING PERSONAL SUCCESS WITH THE METHOD, THE "ALPHA ROLL" IS NOT AN APPROPRIATE TRAINING TECHNIQUE, ESPECIALLY FOR NEW PET OWNERS.

I APOLOGIZE TO SHADOWBOXER FOR THE MISDIRECTION AND GIVING OUTDATED INFORMATION, AND I THANK THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE FORUM FOR CORRECTING ME ON THIS.

SEE ... AN OLD DOG CAN LEARN NEW TRICKS.

Gary

 

[wagondog]

All good advice but I would add two comments:
1. Puppy hasn't gotten home yet and you are nervous about the biting issues, your pup is going to know that in an instant, these little buggers read you better than you read a newspaper with coffee. Make a conscious effort to stem those feelings around the dog.
2. someone suggested using certain words to correct biting, "no bite" is not a good one to use. "no" is a word that you want to use in other corrections and situations. Pick a word that you will only uses for biting and stick to that word.......ouch works for me,
WagonDog

Be very wary of advice to "take down" a pup, that will start an issue here but better here than with you puppy.

 

[solinvictus]

just put this link up in another thread but thought it could go here also.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/spt/SPT_Puppies.htm

 

[wagondog]

The previous posts are all good advice. We would (and will be again, starting Tuesday) yell: OWW! OUCH! or NO! ... loud enough to startle the pup, and then redirect them.

You should also know that there are two types of biting, play and aggression. It's not always easy to tell them apart, and IMO, they should be dealt with differently. Play biting can be corrected with a stern command and redirecting. But play biting can become aggression if the pup gets carried away. That's why play biting should always be discouraged.

Aggression biting is an attempt to establish dominance. It can occur if the pup gets too worked up during play, but also when you do something the pup doesn't like, such as taking away a toy or food. In this case a "take down" is warranted (IMO). This is where you put the pup on its side, in a laying position on the floor, and hold him there, until YOU let him up. This can be done by grabbing the front leg furthest from you, while at the same time holding the pup by the neck with your other hand. You pull the leg toward you and push away with the hand holding the neck, causing the pup to 'fall' on its side. You then pin the pup to the ground with your forearm (don't smoosh him), and with your thumb and fingers firmly around the pups neck, hold them to the floor in this position. (Think of your thumb and fingers around their neck as the jaws of an adult dog. Your thumb is the lower jaw, fingers the upper.) DON'T choke the dog, just use a firm grip, and hold the dog down until it stops struggling, or trying to bite back - which may take a little bit the first time or two you do this. Once the dog submits, i.e. lays calmly, you can let it back up. If they try and bite as they get up, repeat the take down immediately, and keep doing so until they show no sign of aggression.

This isn't being mean to the dog, you're just showing it who's in charge here. This is the way adult dogs discipline the pups, to show them who's boss. I also recommend showing young children how to execute this move, and to use it. Dogs are social, pack animals, not people. Human families simulate the pack, and aggressive biting by a pup isn't meanness. The pup is only trying to find out where it stands in the pack/family hierarchy. It should always be firmly on the bottom.

One point here: your objective should never be to hurt the dog. Be firm, not forceful. Don't slam the dog to the floor, jerk the leg, or choke the dog. NEVER NEVER NEVER HIT THE DOG!!! And one other thing. You should be YELLING - NO! NO! NO! when you do the take down. After a few times, all you do is yell NO! and the pup will stop - WHATEVER it's doing.

I'm sure glad I'm not your puppy! You have to be kidding about instructing young children to do alpha rolls on a puppy because that my friend can be downright dangerous to the child as well as the dog. This may be your method but please don't recommend it to a person getting a new pup, they come here for advice.

 

[MelandEl]

good advice and articles...sophie is still in her biting phase and days like today (this morning) i get so frustrated i think it's never going to end! i know it's all about patience it's just hard to get there sometimes!

 

[wagondog]

Sorry but that "alpha roll" advice just don't cut it. Bite inhibition is taught by dogs to dogs, not by humans to dogs. Puppies learn that while in the litter and sometimes need encouragement not to continue it but not by rolling them over into a submissive position :doh:
WagonDog

 

[gold'nchocolate]

Here are a few of my favorite sites on teaching bit inhibition:

http://www.westieclubamerica.com/behavior/nipsandbites.html

http://www.crickethollowfarm.com/biteinhib.htm

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/725

I highly recommend that you NOT (as in NEVER) alpha roll your puppy. It would only cause him/her to become afraid of you and then you will have a fear biter on your hands. All puppies bite while playing. They aren't doing it to be aggressive....it's just that that is how puppies play with each other. Don't forget that you are bringing a puppy into a human environment....it is totally foreign to him/her so you will need to patiently and kindly teach him how to behave in a human environment. Good luck with your new puppy. Relax and enjoy it as that stage goes by so quickly.

 

[solinvictus]

On the subject of Alpha Rolls. Violence begets Violence.

Todays behavior scientist have found that the old alpha roll theory was based on incorrect data and opinions. The information came from observing wolves.

While observing both dogs and wolves (separately) the behavior scientist have found that when a dog is being submissive it will roll over. If a dog or wolf chooses to alpha roll another it is for the kill.

When we as humans then alpha roll our dogs and pups we are giving a message that we want to kill them. This does nothing for a bond of trust between owner and dog. It just makes the dog think we are crazy and some may shut down and let it happen but others may choose to fight for their lives when they are alpha rolled. So violence begets violence.

As owners our ultimate goal should be for our dogs to love and trust us. So we must find a training method that will encourage our goal.

some very good links on the subject can be found here. I put the section with the links below the original link.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm

Dominance and Social Behavior Issues

• Debunking the Dominance Myth, by Carmen Buitrago, [email protected]
• "Drive" Theory, by Doug Johnson
• Hugging Your Dog, by Barry McDonald
• The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory, by Melissa Alexander -- revised edition
• Social Hierarchies, by Ian Dunbar
• The Macho Myth, by Ian Dunbar
• Why Can't a Dog Be More Like a Dog?, by Ian Dunbar

 

[garyfdl]

I'm sure glad I'm not your puppy! You have to be kidding about instructing young children to do alpha rolls on a puppy because that my friend can be downright dangerous to the child as well as the dog. This may be your method but please don't recommend it to a person getting a new pup, they come here for advice.

Sorry but that "alpha roll" advice just don't cut it. Bite inhibition is taught by dogs to dogs, not by humans to dogs. Puppies learn that while in the litter and sometimes need encouragement not to continue it but not by rolling them over into a submissive position :doh:
WagonDog

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

The "alpha roll" as you call it, was recommended to me years ago, by different trainers in different states (PA NY & WI). The technique is also found in my training manuals. IMO, it works well. And that is based on having Golden's for the last 18 years, and medium and large breed dogs 20 years before that, while also raising 5 children. We have NEVER had any of our large dogs bite beyond the middle puppy stage. The only dog that ever bit was a terrier, and that was one time out of fear reflex; biting my daughter on the hand when she went to pick him up, AFTER he had been severely bitten by another dog.

As for young children learning the move, my youngest was 4 or 5. And this is being done on a young puppy when they are small, NOT an older dog. Owners have to have common sense and discretion. And it is ONLY done when OVERT AGGRESSION is displayed.

All I can say: it worked for us with our dogs; it's working now on our daughter's springer/heeler mix (now there's a dog that's ALL mouth, and more teeth than a shark).

And if you WERE my dog, I guarantee: you would be well mannered, well cared for, have a good life, be the "neighborhood dog" (the one all the kids want to play with) and envy of your master's hunting buddies.

 

[wagondog]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

The "alpha roll" as you call it, was recommended to me years ago, by different trainers in different states (PA NY & WI). The technique is also found in my training manuals. IMO, it works well. And that is based on having Golden's for the last 18 years, and medium and large breed dogs 20 years before that, while also raising 5 children. We have NEVER had any of our large dogs bite beyond the middle puppy stage. The only dog that ever bit was a terrier, and that was one time out of fear reflex; biting my daughter on the hand when she went to pick him up, AFTER he had been severely bitten by another dog.

As for young children learning the move, my youngest was 4 or 5. And this is being done on a young puppy when they are small, NOT an older dog. Owners have to have common sense and discretion. And it is ONLY done when OVERT AGGRESSION is displayed.

All I can say: it worked for us with our dogs; it's working now on our daughter's springer/heeler mix (now there's a dog that's ALL mouth, and more teeth than a shark).

And if you WERE my dog, I guarantee: you would be well mannered, well cared for, have a good life, be the "neighborhood dog" (the one all the kids want to play with) and envy of your master's hunting buddies.

I completely agree that we are all entitled to our opinions and our methods of training, however, this is a public forum where people who are getting their first dog often look to for advice. Your statement that your 4 and 5 year olds are trained in Alpha Rolls (but only on a young puppy when they are small) is not giving good advice to prospective puppy owners. how does a 4 or 5 year old safely roll a dog without injuring the dog, or themselves if the dog does not submit. A child that young has no concept of what can injure a dog. I'll stand by my statement that there are far safer and more effective ways to work with a biting pup. I have had pretty good dogs for 60 years, many had play biting tendencies but none have ever been "rolled" by me or my children.
WagonDog

 

[AmberSunrise]

The following post is very complete and well documented. I need to agree with with all who have stated that the 'alpha roll' is a potentially dangerous move and should *never* be done with puppies ..

On the subject of Alpha Rolls. Violence begets Violence.

Todays behavior scientist have found that the old alpha roll theory was based on incorrect data and opinions. The information came from observing wolves.

While observing both dogs and wolves (separately) the behavior scientist have found that when a dog is being submissive it will roll over. If a dog or wolf chooses to alpha roll another it is for the kill.

When we as humans then alpha roll our dogs and pups we are giving a message that we want to kill them. This does nothing for a bond of trust between owner and dog. It just makes the dog think we are crazy and some may shut down and let it happen but others may choose to fight for their lives when they are alpha rolled. So violence begets violence.

As owners our ultimate goal should be for our dogs to love and trust us. So we must find a training method that will encourage our goal.

some very good links on the subject can be found here. I put the section with the links below the original link.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm

Dominance and Social Behavior Issues

• Debunking the Dominance Myth, by Carmen Buitrago, [email protected]
• "Drive" Theory, by Doug Johnson
• Hugging Your Dog, by Barry McDonald
• The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory, by Melissa Alexander -- revised edition
• Social Hierarchies, by Ian Dunbar
• The Macho Myth, by Ian Dunbar
• Why Can't a Dog Be More Like a Dog?, by Ian Dunbar

 

[garyfdl]

I completely agree that we are all entitled to our opinions and our methods of training, however, this is a public forum where people who are getting their first dog often look to for advice. Your statement that your 4 and 5 year olds are trained in Alpha Rolls (but only on a young puppy when they are small) is not giving good advice to prospective puppy owners. how does a 4 or 5 year old safely roll a dog without injuring the dog, or themselves if the dog does not submit. A child that young has no concept of what can injure a dog. I'll stand by my statement that there are far safer and more effective ways to work with a biting pup. I have had pretty good dogs for 60 years, many had play biting tendencies but none have ever been "rolled" by me or my children.
WagonDog

OK lets take a deep breath and step back a bit here.

First, we did not have our children 'teach' this technique to the puppy. It was taught to out children AFTER it had been taught to the pup. And it was stressed that it was not to be used as play, and ONLY if the dog did not respond to NO, OWW, etc. It was correction of last resort, used ONLY when there was OVERT aggression, it was never harsh or violent; the dog is not 'slammed' to the ground and crushed or smothered. It has worked well, for US; it is working for our daughter. As to how you teach children, we demonstrated it to them, using a stuffed animal at first, and we ALWAYS supervised them when they were with the dog. YOUNG CHILDREN SHOULD NEVER BE LEFT ALONE WITH A PUPPY!!

As far as instilling fear in the dog? Well, based on the fact that our dogs were not afraid of us, they did not cower at our approach or the approach of strangers, and were not submissive in their behavior toward us or others, I disagree. They were happy, well socialized, well behaved dogs that we were comfortable taking anywhere.

As far as advice, the best thing for first time owners is to read everything you can, that is published not just on the web, and talk to trainers (not just the breeder). And be willing to shell out as much as it takes to a professional to help you train your first dog properly and deal with problems that will occur.