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Both breeds can be pretty cool dogs but in the ones we boarded it always seemed like they got the worst of both breeds, which can be pretty bad!

Funny note here - I used to think puggles were really cute.

That was just seeing pictures of like... idealized.... puggles.

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But (1) that was looking at pictures of puppies and of course puppies are cute.

(2) one of my former neighbors got 2 puggles. And they basically just looked taller and uglier pugs with smaller misshapen heads with basenji like ringtails. Ugly dogs. Screamed like pugs. Untrainable.... :rolleyes:
 

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Even worse IMO. People that get mutts know what to expect, at least they should.
Largely because of limited registration, the best and healthiest dogs are often not the ones being bred.
I'm not sure I totally agree- since most good breeders do keep a puppy from their litters, so while many of them going to pets do get S/N and do not reproduce, the same pedigree is probably being used and we can safely infer that the "best" structurally at 8 weeks was the keeper.
It's unfortunate that limited registration is our only tool to keep our produce from being used inappropriately.
 
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Funny note here - I used to think puggles were really cute.

....

But (1) that was looking at pictures of puppies and of course puppies are cute.
And sadly, for WAY too many people, "cute" is all they care about. (This is not aimed at you, Megora, just taking your comment as my start point). I have a colleague who was looking for a new dog. They had lost their Golden and couldn't consider getting another one (something that didn't make sense to me, but every one grieves in their own way). She decided she wanted a Bernese x Saint Bernard. I gently raised all the issues with designer breeds, health clearances needed especially for giant breeds, ethical breeders, etc. She knew, she knew, but "look at how CUTE they are!" It simply didn't matter more to her to buy a puppy from an ethical breeder, from health cleared parents. The puppy was SO cute. She is most definitely not unique in this world.
 

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To be honest, I’m a dog enthusiast first and a breed enthusiast second, so if there was an F1 cross that would reliably produce the dog I want and need, and a breeder that I could trust to be honest about pedigrees, do the appropriate health testing and be very selective about the parent dogs, I would consider a puppy. Sadly, none of those ifs are likely to be true.

I hate the way owners of “oodles” are treated by many people in the dog fancy. I was at a training class last year surrounded by mutts when the instructor spotted a woolly dog in the beginners’ class across the field. I thought it might have been a lagotto, but the instructor was convinced it must be an “oodle” and was ready to head across the field and harangue the owner. She didn’t have the same attitude to the bully-crosses and “staghounds” in the class.

Oodle owners love their dogs and many of them have made a considered choice, whether or not we agree with that choice. Why be nasty about their dog? I often wonder about people’s selection of unsuitable purebred dogs, but I zip my lip and keep my own counsel.
 

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It's not the owners, or the dogs, I take issue with.
It's the people producing the dogs and selling them for lots of money to unsuspecting people, by making lots of statements and/or promises that simply aren't true.

To be honest, I’m a dog enthusiast rather than a breed enthusiast, so if there was an F1 cross that would reliably produce the dog I want and need, and a breeder that I could trust to be honest about pedigrees, do the appropriate health testing and be very selective about the parent dogs, I would consider a puppy. Sadly, none of those ifs are likely to be true.

I hate the way owners of “oodles” are treated by many people in the dog fancy. I was at a training class last year surrounded by mutts when the instructor spotted a woolly dog in the beginners’ class across the field. I thought it might have been a lagotto, but the instructor was convinced it must be an “oodle” and was ready to head across the field and harangue the owner. She didn’t have the same attitude to the bully-crosses and “staghounds” in the class.

Oodle owners love their dogs and many of them have made a considered choice, whether or not we agree with that choice. Why be nasty about their dog? I often wonder about people’s selection of unsuitable purebred dogs, but I zip my lip and keep my own counsel.
 

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It's not the owners, or the dogs, I take issue with.
It's the people producing the dogs and selling them for lots of money to unsuspecting people, by making lots of statements and/or promises that simply aren't true.
I agree about the breeders. In fact, I think they could more accurately be called “oodle” farmers, rather than breeders. To my mind, true breeders have a carefully considered breeding program.

I’m not suggesting that people on this forum are nasty to “oodle” owners; I’ve never seen that.
 

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Kate
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Oodle owners love their dogs and many of them have made a considered choice, whether or not we agree with that choice. Why be nasty about their dog? I often wonder about people’s selection of unsuitable purebred dogs, but I zip my lip and keep my own counsel.
I kinda think about it the same way I approached setting up for grooming at a show where I unfortunately ended up setting up right up next to the Scottish Terriers.... >.<

The people who handled these dogs were the worst "show yuppies" ever. And I discovered exactly why I have never been attracted to the breed.

The whole time (2 days in a row), I ignored the people while bitterly hating their snappy-yappy-screamy dogs who charged the fronts of their crates shrieking every time somebody walked past.

Well, actually it's not like that since I hate yappy shrieky dogs.

Poodle mixes I think are ugly and the owners are silly - but it's a neutral feeling most of the time. Labradoodles I was especially neutral about them. Goldendoodles, irritate the heck out of me because it's like crumpling up a piece of paper and saying it's better that way. >.< Either way, I really can't remember saying anything particular about the dogs I've met. It's just neutral "hi" and "bye" stuff. Just like I would with any dogs or dog breeds I don't take interest in.

Probably only exception would be cockapoos - only because there's an old couple on my street who have one and I LOVE that dog. She's got the yucky poodle coat, but the big sweet cocker spaniel eyes. She's got the miniature poodle scream-bark (shudders), but she's also one of those dogs that wants you to hold her. And/or in the case of her owners, they are very old and she gives them all her love. She's their little white shadow. I've never asked them where they got the pup from. It's never mattered. This couple is pretty tight with money (they've got it, but don't spend it) so I suspect that they either bought the pup from somebody who had puppies or they adopted from a rescue. I know they raised her from a puppy. She was a puppy the same time my Jacks was one.

Another cockapoo I've met - and loved. Again another old person owned her. This was a puppy adopted from a rescue. Beautiful peach puppy and again she had the big beautiful cocker spaniel eyes. She had the poodle brains and the spaniel eagerness to please. She never did anything wrong in any of the classes we shared (this was when my Jovi was a pup). She did everything perfectly and quietly. Not a barker and just very soft and obedient. This was a little girlie pup adopted from a rescue for about $200 or so. The owner was an experienced trainer, I believe, but the dog itself was anybody's dream pup.

Not saying I support people breeding cockapoos.

But I think I've said this before - think cockapoos have been around longer than anything else and even THEY are still not organized enough to be a breed. You see many who are more poodle than anything else and with all the worst traits - enough to make making or buying them a very bad idea.
 

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I am breeding goldendoodles and my main reason was because my daughter loved them alot and in her memory i am doing it as a way to direct more postive energy and healing into the loss of my teenage daughter. when breeding Dogs period it's all about health and love all else pales to those two things imo for whatever reason i have seen people say that various new breeds are mutts and cast judgement on those breeders and in truth i do not pay much mind as long as they bring love and happiness to families who do love them and choose to get them
 

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Kate
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when breeding Dogs period it's all about health and love all else pales to those two things imo for whatever reason i have seen people say that various new breeds are mutts and cast judgement on those breeders...
Some reading material -


874958



874959


874960


*** Doodle breeds have not applied or made themselves eligible based on the following list.

Listening outside of doorways - the word is that breeders are perfectly able to produce a pedigree of many generations where they go along and produce poodle mixes that are close to what they want and alternate between breeding back to labs or poodles every generation or every other generation while maintaining their line of poodle mixes. The reliance on mix breeding is a reason why they apparently have not gone so far as to apply for recognition by AKC. And it has continued to get messier as the mutt breeders add other breeds to the mix. Meaning they are building on to the mixes that they are producing vs weaning off reliance on mixing other breeds - so it doesn't really matter how organized some people get with making a breed club and patchwork breed standard and having speakers from AKC judges to high level golden retriever breeders give seminars on responsible breeding. They are stuck going in circles and making money by just pumping out mutts for sale vs making anything of what they are doing.

The types of people who are decent enough and are struggling to maintain some respectable persona of doing a good and responsible job at selecting dogs for breeding and breeding for health and structure/type, even THEY are still heavily reliant on breeding back to purebred dogs. And those people - their names should be mud based on them either lying to good breeders of goldens or poodles to get their hands on healthy and good quality dogs from good breeders, or them relying on OTHER people to lie to those breeders.

At this time neither golden or poodle clubs support mutt breeding and most breeders are doing what they can to prevent pups from their lines ending up lining a garbage can so to speak.
874961
 

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I am breeding goldendoodles and my main reason was because my daughter loved them alot and in her memory i am doing it as a way to direct more postive energy and healing into the loss of my teenage daughter. when breeding Dogs period it's all about health and love all else pales to those two things imo for whatever reason i have seen people say that various new breeds are mutts and cast judgement on those breeders and in truth i do not pay much mind as long as they bring love and happiness to families who do love them and choose to get them
I'm sorry for your loss- cannot imagine losing a child.
IF you are breeding, though, you need to do all the health clearances for each of the breeds you are mixing- poodles: Hips, Eyes yearly, thyroid, heart by cardiologist. And Goldens- hips, elbows, heart by cardiologist and eyes yearly.
Everything pales in comparison to health. And the doodle mixes are not breeds, never will be. No one involved in dogs respects mixes besides people making money off them. The dogs in individual programs, such as your own? Their breeders were either not involved themselves or there is hoodwinking going on- no one would want their produce involved in such a thing. Of course, the doodle people don't have to have registration so they don't mind buying a pet and breeding it, likely breaking their contract, or breeding a sub-standard animal. Very disappointing.
 

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I'm not sure I totally agree- since most good breeders do keep a puppy from their litters, so while many of them going to pets do get S/N and do not reproduce, the same pedigree is probably being used and we can safely infer that the "best" structurally at 8 weeks was the keeper.
It's unfortunate that limited registration is our only tool to keep our produce from being used inappropriately.
I do not believe it is possible to determine which pup is best structurally at 8 weeks. It is certianly not possible to determine which pup will be the best marker and have the best of all other traits needed in a performance dog. The healthy but unproven sibling of a healthy FC/AFC retriever is not an equally desirable stud or dame.
Limited registration is for the benefit of breeders and more often than not, it is a detriment to the breed.
 

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Kate
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I do not believe it is possible to determine which pup is best structurally at 8 weeks.
I think you can - at least with show pups and picking based on what you see.

With my baby pup I saw different things when I was just there to sign off on paperwork with the breeder. Movement as far as the way Glee crossed the room, temperament and personality, head/topline/length of leg and balance - all these were things I could see at 8 weeks... and all that made him irresistible.

Jovi's litter - there were 3 standouts to pick from (2 pretty even boys and 1 girlie). I got the top male and somebody else got the top female. I ended up choosing Jovi because I liked something about how he moved a little better than the other boy. Everything else was so very close. Ended up being a pretty good pick because there was a bigger difference between the pups at 12 months. Other pup is pretty and looks very much like Jovi, but there are differences between the two now they've grown and filled out and I clearly made the right choice. I'm not saying I've got the same good eye as somebody like Robin or other people who have picked from many many litters.... but even with very inexperienced eyes like mine, you can spot which pup is probably the better pup just seeing him stacked and seeing him moving. And personality and some trainability glimpses are visible that young too.
 

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I think you can - at least with show pups and picking based on what you see.
Maybe so but that only helps with the "Golden" part. It is the "Retriever" part that matters to me.
I see far to many so called "performance litters" out of 2 year old bitches with some minor suffix titles a generation or two behind them.
 

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I do not believe it is possible to determine which pup is best structurally at 8 weeks. It is certianly not possible to determine which pup will be the best marker and have the best of all other traits needed in a performance dog. The healthy but unproven sibling of a healthy FC/AFC retriever is not an equally desirable stud or dame.
Limited registration is for the benefit of breeders and more often than not, it is a detriment to the breed.
I believe I can choose best structurally at 8 weeks- and I haven't had the experience of being sorry for my keeper as of yet in 40 years.
Marking, etc I can also see at a young age but I do more with my puppies than many do- I have live and dead birds for them,swim them as babies, and at 7 weeks I can see who has potential. Now that said, I do not do field trials so do not claim to be able to choose a FT dog, but certainly bidability and marking and birdiness is easy enough to see at a very young age.
Absolutely LR is used to protect one's lines from the use of them in breeding programs. I'm glad we have that tool, since the number of unscrupulous people out there just seems to increase by the day.
 

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but certainly bidability and marking and birdiness is easy enough to see at a very young age.
Every pup in a good litter will be biddable and birdy. I know people that have been running field trials for decades. None of them will tell you they know which 8 week old pup will be able to mark multiple 200-400 yard birds and remember them after a rooster pheasant flier is shot and all the guns retire.
 

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And I do not do FTs- so you know way more about that venue than I ever would know, for sure. Structure is structure though, and it can be determined at 8 weeks with experienced eyes and hands.
 

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Maybe so but that only helps with the "Golden" part. It is the "Retriever" part that matters to me.
I see far to many so called "performance litters" out of 2 year old bitches with some minor suffix titles a generation or two behind them.
What exactly is a minor suffix to you? I have been given the impression that you only think the titles on the front of the name matter. A minor suffix to me would be a CD, BN, RN, CGC, or TKN. All of them can be obtained by most dogs and/or handlers. I feel that when people go on to obtain more than that Novice title, that they are actually demonstrating that the dog can work. Impressive titles to me are the higher ones. UD, UDX, is Rally Master RM?, TKE (I know it's considered a pet dog title, but it takes a lot to earn), MH and so on are what I like to see. Agility counts too of course! I personally like a dog that is pleasing to the eye and is a great worker.To me, that means closer to the look of a show dog.
 

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JH, SH, WC, WCI, WCX
Anything related to dock diving, shed hunting, parlor tricks.....................

So you would have passed on a dog like this one because neither of her parents had a field title higher than a WC and you look at her pedigree, it is basically all breed dogs.

And I suppose you wouldn't have taken a puppy from the litter between her and Apache?
 
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