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Kate
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Our friends’ breeder also has videos on their site explaining how to read pennhip results, interpret embark results and the importance of OFA clear elbows She doesn’t claim to try to create a new breed, just to breed health tested doodles for those who are seeking them.
I was going to say this yesterday, but have bumped into poodle mix people at dog shows where they show up to get health clearances. It's sort of like when you watch a toddler coloring? They learn very early to use the right colors like green for trees and so on, but they color like crazy inside, outside, and all around the lines. That's what they do when they talk a good game about getting full clearances, talk about breeding for structure and correct coat, and claiming they have gone many generations with their dogs... while you drag the truth out of them that they can't go more than 1-2 generations without breeding their mixed breed dog back to purebred dog because there is no actual knowledge shared even from the purebred experts who are lending a hand to them.

The ironic thing is that people 100-200 years ago knew more about creating a breed than I think people do today. People within golden retrievers who are holding hands with mutt breeders and saying they want to help them get their "breeds" (at this time it's splitting off into ten million poodle mix breeds) off the ground.... they can't even produce golden retrievers who are EVERYTHING (CH dogs, FC dogs, MACH dogs, OTCH dogs, longevity, hips/elbows, etc).

Many golden people who have been breeding goldens for 40-50 years sometimes still really struggle to consistently produce all around good things in a purebred dog. Good luck getting their expertise on making an all new breed that can close their stud books in 10-20 years.
 

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The ironic thing is that people 100-200 years ago knew more about creating a breed than I think people do today.
I don’t find this surprising at all. Prior to 1900 most people were much more well versed in animal structure, animal husbandry and breeding animals with a purpose on the whole. Most of the people knew these things because their lives depend on it. If your horse was structurally weak you couldn’t plow your field, take a wagon to town or ride any distances. If your milking goat was not hearty or was poor in milk production your family could go hungry.

Most of us are so far removed from animals now, most people can’t see poor structure when it should be slapping them in the face. Most puppy buyers and by extension uneducated breeders can only see very blatant things like colors and heads.

The skills needed to be a breeder capable of engineering a whole new breed are missing from most people and the breeders who do have that skill set are usually already dedicated the breed or breeds where they learned them and are not going to decide to mix breed.
 

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Discussion Starter #43 (Edited)
After reading through responses and thinking on the topic, I realized that I could have done a better job of stating the original question. Instead of "At what point-in-time does a "breeder of mutts" gain credibility?", I should have asked "What differentiates a 'breeding program' from 'a breeder of mutts'?".

I say this because I've observed that many who say "never" go on to elaborate on qualities and/or standards that "breeders of mutts" will (most likely) never adhere to, either through ignorance, inability, or priorities.
 

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Instead of "At what point-in-time does a "breeder of mutts" gain credibility?",I should have asked "What differentiates a 'breeding program' for 'a breeder of mutts'?".
I honestly have no idea what you are asking here.
 

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Just the phrase 'breeding program' has multiple meanings. For the BYB or ECGR person using that term, it means making puppies. To someone like me, it means a clear goal, method, etc and naturally, to me, my kind of breeding program is real while the one run by someone w no breed knowledge, no independent verification of success via titles, etc is not even a real breeding program.
 

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So, we have friends who have a 5 month old doodle. He’s an F1B, so he’s majority standard poodle....so I’m not really sure why they didn’t just get a standard poodle. He looks like a black phantom standard poodle. He acts like a poodle, and they groom him with a short face like a poodle. Anyway, when they first got him I asked who the breeder was. They told me they had to fly him in from Utah (we are in VT) because they couldn’t find any other doodle breeders who health tested their dogs. I looked up their website, and I was shocked to see that all of their dogs have PennHip and OFA clearances as well as full embark panels. I have not seen that with many goldendoodle breeders, though I have also seen this with some Australian labradoodle breeders. And to be very clear I am NOT a doodle supporter for the reasons previously stated above.

Our friends’ breeder also has videos on their site explaining how to read pennhip results, interpret embark results and the importance of OFA clear elbows She doesn’t claim to try to create a new breed, just to breed health tested doodles for those who are seeking them.

Our friends love their doodle. So far he’s been a great dog for them, and as far as I’ve seen, their breeder has done things as ethically as possible.

All this to say, I don’t think doodles will be going anywhere. They certainly will never become a recognized breed. I guess I find some comfort at least knowing that there are doodle breeders out their who are following some sort of ethical code and health testing their dogs....one can only hope that trend becomes more universal if anything.
This is absolutely fascinating to me. I maintain that they don't want a "full poodle" because "oh no, girly!" (Which first, what's wrong with being girly/feminine? And second... it's a dog. Stop projecting your fragile masculinity/misogyny onto a dog.) but wow, they clearly did a good amount of research too. Good for them :D

I'm very much for the "harm reduction" model, and if people are going to keep getting doodles, we might as well give them an ethical source for them instead of letting it be all puppy mills/BYBs. I hope this becomes the trend!
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Instead of "At what point-in-time does a "breeder of mutts" gain credibility?", I should have asked "What differentiates a 'breeding program' for 'a breeder of mutts'?".
I honestly have no idea what you are asking here.
I am referring to those who responded "never" to my original question, and then continued on to discuss things like health screening, breed standards, etc. And, to those who also elaborated on the differences between the breeding programs that resulted in the current breeds, and the current practices of folks who are simply crossing two purebreds to get a salable product.

I read these responses more along the lines of commenting that "intent and attitude" may have more to do with the distinction referenced in my original question. In short, people who are primarily interested in profit over function are not going to invest the requisite time and resources to develop a program capable of effectively addressing the development of a new breed. Ergo, a "breeder of mutts" will never gain credibility as a "breeding program" because the underlying "intent and attitude" are fundamentally flawed (from the perspective of an hobby/preservation breeder).

With that in mind, I can see viewing "breeding program" from two perspectives. The first is what the vast majority of breeders are involved in; developing and maintaining a breed by ethically breeding to the breed standard. There is quite a bit of information on this site, and others, that address the hallmarks of ethical hobby/preservation breeders.

The second perspective is that of a person(s) seeking to develop a new breed, but doing so in an ethical and knowledgeable manner. With my superficial knowledge of cross-breeding (gained through untold minutes of Google-foo), doing something like this would require the addition of a significant DNA/research program on top of the efforts already undertaken by hobby/preservation breeders.
 

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In one of the earlier comments, there is a reference to the unpredictability of F1 puppies. Based on my recollections of university genetics lectures, i don’t believe this is precisely accurate. F1 (not F1b) puppies would be fairly uniform in type, depending on the uniformity of the parent breeds. Further generations would be exceedingly variable until selective breeding had substantial influence. A mid 20th century book (which I can’t find but think was LF Whitney’s How To Breed Dogs) had photos of the F1 and F2 progeny of a cross between a cocker spaniel and a basenji created by genetic researchers. The F1 dogs were uniformly nondescript smallish black dogs. The F2 dogs were very varied, with one even looking like a purebred cocker spaniel.
The problem with F1 dogs is that they are unlikely to have the desired characteristics. Based on the genes for coat type, I would expect an F1 golden- or lab-poodle cross to have a wiry, wavy, shedding coat. The wiry, wavy coat would hold the shed hairs and make grooming problematic. Many professional groomers report major problems with matting in “oodles”. There may be pure bred dogs with the same genotype, but selection for coat quality of purebred dogs over many generations has undoubtedly affected minor modifying genes, producing more groomable dogs.
Several genes affect size in dogs and in most cases the gene for smaller size is recessive to the gene for larger size. This means that F1 dogs are likely to be the size of their larger parent, or even larger if the smaller dog carries a large-dog gene which the larger dog does not.
Because of the predictability of F1 animals, farmers sometimes breed F1 crosses for specific purposes. In Australia, wool-producing merino ewes are bred to meat-breed rams to produce fat lambs - a second “crop” for the farmers. But the farmers aren’t even aiming for the best meat quality and growth, just something bigger and faster growing than a pure merino lamb would be, and they don’t much care about other characteristics such as temperament and longevity.
 

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I would still probably ask why they need to mix the breeds at all considering that traits can be found in either breed. Both breeds are wonderful and can stand on their own legs as far as being everything you want in a service dog. There are purebred labs out there who have the sweet temperament and trainability that you want for a sound working dog. Actually there are more purebred labs who touch all the bases than there are goldens. It just is a wonderful breed that you can completely understand why it's preferred over goldens in many service dog organizations, for hunters, and for many pet homes.

Understand that these same organizations ALSO produce poodle mixes for homes that need "hyper-allergenic" dogs. Considering they do not place puppies in homes, but adults - I would gather that the adult dogs placed in those homes truly have more of a poodle coat.

So if you have a program that keeps goldens, labs, poodles, etc... as part of their breeding program and they breed the dogs interchangeably and progressively do this more and more over the years.... I wonder why people do not say anything vs zipping their lips and looking the other way?

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Several service dog organizations have found that the Lab Golden crosses actually have a slightly higher success rate than do the full Labs and Goldens. Additionally, the two service dog organizations in my area do not use poodles.
 

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If you look at the most recent dog breeds recognized by the AKC, they have very long histories of development or existence before the AKC considered adding them to the recognized list of breeds.
 

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"At what point-in-time does a "breeder of mutts" gain credibility?", I should have asked "What differentiates a 'breeding program' for 'a breeder of mutts'?".
"At what point-in-time does a "breeder of mutts" gain credibility? According to the AKC, October 1, 2009.
In my opinion, almost never. The few that have died at least a century ago.

"What differentiates a 'breeding program' for 'a breeder of mutts'?"
A primary focus on the health and betterment of the breed. Sadly, there are many breeders of purebred dogs that don't qualify.



 

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Kate
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Several service dog organizations have found that the Lab Golden crosses actually have a slightly higher success rate than do the full Labs and Goldens. Additionally, the two service dog organizations in my area do not use poodles.
The 2 service dog organizations (pretty big ones) I'm thinking of do use poodles. And they state they use goldens, labs, and mixes of the two, as well as poodles and poodle mixes for homes that need a "hyper allergenic" dog.

Regarding the rest of what you say, the thing that I wonder and it's the same thing that bothers me about the poodle mix people....

Basically it's people who have decided that a magic formula for getting the dogs they want is mix a purebred with one of their designer mutts. There is never an intention to progress to a breeding program where they are not mixing at some point either this generation or the next one.

I am not criticizing you for being a home for a breeder mom for one of these programs. I believe you own a lab and she had been bred to a golden or a golden mix to produce service dog puppies (who were adorable and I hope every single one of the is successful).

I think it is possible to ask questions as to why programs insist on using "magic formulas" vs improving on what is going on when they breed a purebred to a purebred.

I "think" I know the answer perhaps - and it's the same reason why big time performance people do not purchase goldens from the types of breeders who donate puppies to service dog organizations. I know of at least one breeder and I just gotta say, her dogs don't have talent. LOL. But they are the sweetest and soundest things and physically they are pretty good as well.

It does not affect me what service dog orgs do? But just pointing out that they do exactly what we criticize with other people. Would not have said anything if people had not already brought up SD orgs as an example of being OK when they are breeding odds and ends.

Given a choice between a breeder donating a pup to this program knowing that pup may be bred to a lab or a poodle... or a breeder donating a pup to science where this pup will have stuff done to it to cause it to have something like MS.... service dog organization that mixbreed would get the nod (or neither I guess).
 

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The 2 service dog organizations (pretty big ones) I'm thinking of do use poodles. And they state they use goldens, labs, and mixes of the two, as well as poodles and poodle mixes for homes that need a "hyper allergenic" dog.

Regarding the rest of what you say, the thing that I wonder and it's the same thing that bothers me about the poodle mix people....

Basically it's people who have decided that a magic formula for getting the dogs they want is mix a purebred with one of their designer mutts. There is never an intention to progress to a breeding program where they are not mixing at some point either this generation or the next one.

I am not criticizing you for being a home for a breeder mom for one of these programs. I believe you own a lab and she had been bred to a golden or a golden mix to produce service dog puppies (who were adorable and I hope every single one of the is successful).

I think it is possible to ask questions as to why programs insist on using "magic formulas" vs improving on what is going on when they breed a purebred to a purebred.

I "think" I know the answer perhaps - and it's the same reason why big time performance people do not purchase goldens from the types of breeders who donate puppies to service dog organizations. I know of at least one breeder and I just gotta say, her dogs don't have talent. LOL. But they are the sweetest and soundest things and physically they are pretty good as well.

It does not affect me what service dog orgs do? But just pointing out that they do exactly what we criticize with other people. Would not have said anything if people had not already brought up SD orgs as an example of being OK when they are breeding odds and ends.

Given a choice between a breeder donating a pup to this program knowing that pup may be bred to a lab or a poodle... or a breeder donating a pup to science where this pup will have stuff done to it to cause it to have something like MS.... service dog organization that mixbreed would get the nod (or neither I guess).
Canine Companions for Independence does not use poodles and it’s one of the largest service dog organizations in the US. Guide Dogs for the Blind is one of the largest guide dog organizations in the Western US and it does not use poodles.

As stated, the lab Golden crosses are produced based on decades of research and for a specific purpose. That’s nothing like for profit breeders producing mutts.
 

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Kate
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With that in mind, I can see viewing "breeding program" from two perspectives. The first is what the vast majority of breeders are involved in; developing and maintaining a breed by ethically breeding to the breed standard. There is quite a bit of information on this site, and others, that address the hallmarks of ethical hobby/preservation breeders.

The second perspective is that of a person(s) seeking to develop a new breed, but doing so in an ethical and knowledgeable manner. With my superficial knowledge of cross-breeding (gained through untold minutes of Google-foo), doing something like this would require the addition of a significant DNA/research program on top of the efforts already undertaken by hobby/preservation breeders.
There is a third perspective - that's regular pet owners and active/competitive/showing pet owners.

People like me - we are not breeders. If you own a stud dog and even if he's used by breeders, that does not make you a breeder. That said, I know of people who have had to jump hoops in order to purchase a pup with full registration that is show quality - just so they can show that pup and dabble in all the sports they want dabble in. And every 5 years, it gets tougher and tougher for new people.

I'm not going to go into all of the stuff along those lines, but a new breeder is expected to be a saint in every decision they make with their dogs and every few years there more stuff they have to do in order to "prove" their dogs so they don't get blacklisted or whatever.

People making inquiries with breeders for a purebred, wellbred, etc pup for showing - they got a huge mountain to climb and there is not always a big welcoming and guidance committee if when they even do get a good puppy (and that's not always a given depending on who they bought the pup from).

How did we get here?

Back in the 2000's and prior, we had a demand for and development of the "limited registration" just so people didn't have to jump hoops in order to buy a pup they could register with the AKC. Breeders used to hold paperwork until they received proof of n/s. OR they simply refused to provide papers.

With the headaches that you went through in getting your own dog's papers from her breeder.... I think you probably get how frustrating that might be for people who slapped down a good chunk of change for a pup.... and back then all obedience classes led to the obedience ring if you stuck around long enough. So if you attended classes with your golden pup, you would have received the same training instruction that people currently get when they graduate puppy class and move into the competition classes. In puppy classes, the instructor typically was also giving people conformation showing advice because if your pup was registered, that also meant that your pup was legit able to show in conformation for socialization.

You know how today, people are encouraged to bring their pups into every hardware store, or mall or whatever they can - to socialize a young pup? I remember taking puppy classes where the instructor was encouraging everyone in the class (no mixed breeds, no backyard bred dogs, all purebred dogs) to enter shows with their dogs as a positive way to socialize the pups and show them off.

AKC was thriving back then - but apparently decided that they needed to get more people to register their pups. So they started limited registration and they also introduced 2 new ways to register dogs who had no papers.

What we've seen since then is more and more breeders using limited registration to cut off the supply of dogs to newbies who might have shown their dogs and gotten hooked on the sports. We've seen the generation of show people, breeders, competitors that were in their prime back in the 90's, become what feels like the last generation of show people, breeders, and competitors. This is because instead of having people growing up while surrounded by opportunities to show and compete with their dogs, you've had people progressively told that purebred dogs are unhealthy and unsound while told that all these "all Americans" that people were adopting had hybrid vigor in their favor.

With the push by a lot of people to get poodle mixes of all kinds, shapes, sizes, etc... I think the root of all that is people who do not want an unhealthy and unsound purebred, but also want the certainty and type of a purebred (without owning a purebred). That's why people are not even trying to look into all of the existing breeds that have the "poodle look" without being poodles. Because those are purebred dogs and not healthy or sound. <= You've got about 30-40 years worth of damaged perspective where it involves purebred breeds vs mixed breeds. That 30-40 years could be about 3 generations of people by now - as far as people having any decent exposure to a nice and well bred dog.

long schpeel short - see above for my comment on what I've heard or seen with the breeders of mixed breeds who rely on "magic formulas". And add to that the fact that these people were created by AKC attempting to make nice with the rescue community years ago. And what has happened instead is basically the perception that AKC cut off arms and legs to appease a community that has moved on to not only push people away from purebred dogs, but has also been pushing for people to breed mutts left and right, on demand.

All that has been a progression in the wrong direction. And it's harmful for the breeds like golden retrievers in the same way that the poodle breed is a mess now. And I've seen some well bred poodles. They are phenomenal dogs for training - at least for agility. And you see these dogs in conformation in person and they are made to show. And they enjoy it. In pet homes, the poodles that are really well bred and come from conscientious breeders - are fantastic dogs. I had a neighbor who had 3-4 standard (like huge) poodles. They were always kept in a "puppy clip" and kept perfectly groomed. And they were stunning dogs - put them next to somebody's poodle mix and you could absolutely spot ten million differences in quality and beauty.

If people did end up settling down and stopped going back and using goldens and poodles and actually have a breed that's separate with ample careful proof that they have produced many generations of poodle mixes that breed true and no longer need to have goldens or poodles or every single other AKC breed reintroduced back into the mix.... and the supposed breed clubs posted statements requiring in the code of ethics that people are not allowed to breed mixed breeds anymore, no more F1/F2/F3 etc talk. That's probably when you could see people in goldens and other breeds relaxing and saying "ok, whatever" since it no longer affects THEIR breeds.

But currently with everyone relying on their magic formulas (ie continued mixed breeding) for making doodles who have the ideal look/style/coat/etc - you are never going to see any changes in perception regarding these people.

I mentioned all the hoops and barriers people have to cross and jump in order to get their foot in the door for showing and breeding a purebred dog? How about the reaction we all might have about people buying limited registration dogs and becoming mutt breeders with them? Not only does that make matters worse for newbs who want to show and breed dogs, but it also is making it tougher for regular pet homes to purchase a pet from breeders. <= This is the fault of all those doodle people who are gratuitously burning bridges not just for themselves, but for regular people who want to buy a nice purebred golden without too much fuss.
 

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A hybrid is a mix of 2 species, not 2 breeds.
Mutt breeders talking about hybrid vigor are either ignorant of basic biology or intentionally spouting nonsense.
 

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And the absolute worst are the greeders who mix breeds to result in a cute name.
We boarded a biscottie (Bichon x Scottie), a Woodle (Wheaten x poodle) and of course a bunch of Puggles. Why in the world anyone would intentionally mix a pug and a beagle boggles my mind. Then there's the chiwienies (Chihuahua x Dachshund).
And of course the endless supply of poos. Maltipoo, cavipoo, Bichipoo, and so on. Yucky poo.
Interestingly we boarded one F3 Australian labradoodle. The dog had horrible juvenile cataracts and died of Addison's at about 6-7 years old.
 

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Kate
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Puggles. Why in the world anyone would intentionally mix a pug and a beagle boggles my mind.
Funny note here - I used to think puggles were really cute.

That was just seeing pictures of like... idealized.... puggles.

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But (1) that was looking at pictures of puppies and of course puppies are cute.

(2) one of my former neighbors got 2 puggles. And they basically just looked taller and uglier pugs with smaller misshapen heads with basenji like ringtails. Ugly dogs. Screamed like pugs. Untrainable.... :rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter #58
Several service dog organizations have found that the Lab Golden crosses actually have a slightly higher success rate than do the full Labs and Goldens. Additionally, the two service dog organizations in my area do not use poodles.
To your knowledge, do these organizations focus on F1 offspring? Or, are they also working to move into F2/F3?
 

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Discussion Starter #59
"What differentiates a 'breeding program' from 'a breeder of mutts'?"
A primary focus on the health and betterment of the breed. Sadly, there are many breeders of purebred dogs that don't qualify.
This is a distinction that I realized my original phrasing of the question overlooked. Interestingly, the inference is that it is possible to breed "mutt-quality purebreds". :unsure:
 

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Interestingly, the inference is that it is possible to breed "mutt-quality purebreds".
Even worse IMO. People that get mutts know what to expect, at least they should.
Largely because of limited registration, the best and healthiest dogs are often not the ones being bred.
 
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