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Gotta ask - 2-3 days after the 2nd shot, how did you feel?

Were you sick at all? Or fatigued?
The day after my Moderna second dose, I was out- slept like 16 hours with a cold. Two days after was fine. My arm was sore for about 3 days, and I was really weak for almost a week (when trying to work out).
 

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Gotta ask - 2-3 days after the 2nd shot, how did you feel?

Were you sick at all? Or fatigued?
I know the question wasn't directed at me, but just wanted to share...
My wife and I got our second Pfizer shots 3 weeks ago this past Monday.
Neither of us felt anything after the first shot, but the second shot made my wife really sick the day after the shot. I had no reaction. She was pretty sick the day after and pretty much out of it the rest of the week.

Even though she had a reaction we are both grateful to be vaccinated and won't hesitate to get a booster later this year if/when one is required.
 

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Gotta ask - 2-3 days after the 2nd shot, how did you feel?

Were you sick at all? Or fatigued?
My partner took a half day off to sleep on the first day after his second shot but was fine by day two. My brother had a headache and felt fatigued but was still able to work. Neither of them had a reaction (aside from a sore arm) to the first shot. I had a weird headache not quite a migraine for two days after my first shot so I'm anticipating being down for at least a day after. I get my second dose next week. (yay!). Are you worried you'll have a side effect?
 

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They had better be or they are fooling themselves and wasting their time. If you are not sure of what you are doing, do not be afraid to seek help from knowledgeable people. Everybody has to start somewhere.
As far as what kind of puppy buyers I would prefer, my favorite would be a good pet home, someone who has had a Golden before, has good references, and can provide a loving home for the pup. I also would ask a lot of open-ended questions, such as where will the puppy live ( the correct answer being in the house). I know this is a very simple example.
The "performance-first" crowd tends to look at it from the opposite perspective. They (and I include myself in that category) often believe it's the conformation crowd that is not doing their "due-diligence". To the performance crowd, the sine quo non of the breed standard is what the dog DEMONSTRATES that it can do, not that it conforms to the fanciful notions of what the breed ring thinks are necessary for function, like "expression" and "tail set."
 

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And natural instinct is not something easily predicted either…lots of stock dogs wash out. There is no way to predict ability at 8 weeks as even the best pups may not show interest until 6 plus months. Many of these dogs may go on to have successful performance careers even if they fail out of a stock program, but performance is performance and herding drive is herding drive.
 

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Kate
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The "performance-first" crowd tends to look at it from the opposite perspective. They (and I include myself in that category) often believe it's the conformation crowd that is not doing their "due-diligence". To the performance crowd, the sine quo non of the breed standard is what the dog DEMONSTRATES that it can do, not that it conforms to the fanciful notions of what the breed ring thinks are necessary for function, like "expression" and "tail set."
There are mixed breed dogs out there who are fantastic workers. Depending on what else is in there might make them better workers than many field bred goldens even...

If the breed standard only matters for 1 line related to function, why not go all the way and mix breeds to get more of what you want?

dog may have a tail set and expression which suggests it has something else in it, but if those don’t matter as much as what the dog does.... you see what I am getting at?
The whole breed standard matters.
 

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I'm going to do my best to answer what I think is the difference between how performance and conformation breeders evaluate puppies. I do firmly believe that most performance breeders do a cursory evaluation of conformation. But I think what they do is use that evaluation to pick stud dogs. So if they think their bitch has an ugly head, they may prioritize a male that doesn't double up on that. Or if she's small they may prioritize a larger male (that's still within standard). So they consider conformation when making breeding decisions, not when evaluating puppies. No field person I know wants an ugly scrawny dog, they are in goldens for a reason and part of that is they want a dog that looks like a golden.
 

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I know the question wasn't directed at me, but just wanted to share...
My wife and I got our second Pfizer shots 3 weeks ago this past Monday.
Neither of us felt anything after the first shot, but the second shot made my wife really sick the day after the shot. I had no reaction. She was pretty sick the day after and pretty much out of it the rest of the week.

Even though she had a reaction we are both grateful to be vaccinated and won't hesitate to get a booster later this year if/when one is required.
We had similar experiences after our second Moderna. My husband got really sick. It started during the night and continued throughout the next day -- then he felt all better. I just got a sore arm.
 

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Brady Aedan Finch and Wren
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My second Moderna shot had me somewhat tired the following day, but I was very fuzzy headed and glad I took the following day off from work. The sore arm lasted about 3 days but I was feeling fine on the 2nd day after the shot other than the arm.

About conformation...my stud dogs are chosen to try to improve what my girls may be lacking in, but working ability is considered first. For example both Towhee & Finch are small so in almost all their breedings (exception being Titan for his incredible working abilities and he had moderate size behind him, we bred to sires well within the standard, some with CH in front of their names (or pointed) but not a priority if there were no performance titles. Both girls are/were athletic, well balanced with heads i love but focus does/did not come natural to them in distracting environments so again workability was placed higher on our priorities. Looking for sires was a balance..conformation improvements yes but since they both are/were well balanced & athletic working ability was definitely a higher priority.

Also, both Towhee, & to a lesser extent Finch, could be considered tough, dogs proven to be biddable were on the short list.
 

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Kate
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My second Moderna shot had me somewhat tired the following day, but I was very fuzzy headed and glad I took the following day off from work. The sore arm lasted about 3 days but I was feeling fine on the 2nd day after the shot other than the arm.

About conformation...my stud dogs are chosen to try to improve what my girls may be lacking in, but working ability is considered first. For example both Towhee & Finch are small so in almost all their breedings (exception being Titan for his incredible working abilities and he had moderate size behind him, we bred to sires well within the standard, some with CH in front of their names (or pointed) but not a priority if there were no performance titles. Both girls are/were athletic, well balanced with heads i love but focus does/did not come natural to them in distracting environments so again workability was placed higher on our priorities. Looking for sires was a balance..conformation improvements yes but since they both are/were well balanced & athletic working ability was definitely a higher priority.

Also, both Towhee, & to a lesser extent Finch, could be considered tough, dogs proven to be biddable were on the short list.
You didn't mention Faelan - who I always thought was absolutely gorgeous. And Towhee - have always loved her flying picture. :)

I thought it was worth talking about all this because I think people get caught up on buying and selling dogs based on pedigrees alone - and that even includes conformation people.... but that's just on paper. Looking at the dogs and comparing to the breed standards and just KNOWING what each part of the breed standard means literally compared to the dog.... I think is a pretty big deal if you are going to make puppies.
 

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Brady Aedan Finch and Wren
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Faelan.. what can I say? He was perfect.

Handsome, tough but loved working with me (agility, rally, obedience some field where I learned just how much our relationship mattered since he didn't much care how much pressure was applied by his pro, but a sideways look from me would have him asking how he could do better), athletic in abundance, loving in temperament.. my ideal dog. The frozen breeding to his sire so I could have another Borax son didn't take, but Barb is on the hunt for another dam (my girls are too close). An incredible hiking & biking companion and seemingly ageless until he died suddenly a week shy of 13.

My Aedan is out of Faelan and shares many of his best qualities.
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
Gotta ask - 2-3 days after the 2nd shot, how did you feel?

Were you sick at all? Or fatigued?
Nope, not sick at all. My arm was a bit sore at the injection site for a few days, but that was it. Since I had already cleared my weekend (and have been putting in some long days at work), I may have taken advantage of the situation to get some extra "down cycles". 😁

However, both my wife and son had the full on fever, aches, etc. about 12-hours after the shot. The worst lasted a bit over 24-hours, and maybe 2-to-3 days before "feeling normal".
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
@SoCalEngr do you feel encouraged? Better? Worse? I'm curious as to your thoughts on our responses. :)
So...

I am, indeed, feeling encouraged...on many fronts. And, amused on at least one.

I'll start with "it was encouraging to see this thread not degenerate into a back-and-forth between 'hobbyists' and 'enthusiasts'". It had the potential, so it was nice not to see it go there.

To be fair, I asked more out of curiosity about how hobby/preservation breeders view/screen/rank prospective homes than out of any concern. For me, I would totally give priority to other hobbyists for getting on my "short list". It would not so much be a vote "against" any group of people, so much as an outcome of wanting the best for my puppies. And, it's quite likely that I'd have some personal knowledge (or, knew someone who did) of other hobbyists seeking my puppies. Given that, I also think that it's quite likely that some hobbyists would be on my "not in my lifetime, bud 🙄" list. 😂

The most enlightening discussion? The emphasis on "best match" over "top pick". While I, at some level, knew this was a driving consideration, it was a learning experience to see it repeated over-and-over. Likely, it will be my #1 takeaway from this thread.

I'd even venture that "best match" is at play in scenarios where it may seem that some breeders are excluding entire categories of potential owners. I believe I like "the look" of "field goldens" more-so than "show goldens". (Please, no one crucify for that last statement. I know how it must sound to hobbyists, but it's stream-of-consciousness and my best attempt at verbalizing something I've learned about myself and the breed over the past two (2) years.) But, I now understand that there's no way we'd be a good home for a golden specifically bred for the field, as we really need a lower-energy model. So, excluding some groups from a list of potential owners for a litter bred with expectations of specific traits makes sense (to me).

Most amusing? While things never got contentious, it was amusing that the most back-and-forth seems to be between the hobbyists. 😁 Then again, I guess these discussions are part-and-parcel of any topic when those involved are invested in the topic.
 

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I always get stricken by guilt when I read these threads. Until our current girl, we had golden mixes as pet dogs. This time, as retired empty nesters, I wanted a girl I could try learning with in all sorts of performance areas: rally, agility, obedience, who knows. And then pursue whatever my golden and I showed aptitude for. And a generous performance breeder gave me a chance.

Six weeks after we brought Vala home, Covid lockdown happened. Up till then I had been doing everything I could to get her properly socialized with dogs and humans. And some intro to agility as well as obedience private lessons. After lockdown, the best I could do was zoom obedience classes. And I worked at home on getting her a trick dog novice title. Since June, we’ve been doing cancer (mine) and covid lockdown simultaneously. This week, finally, for the first time, we started intro to agility class.

I fear we must be a terrible disappointment to our breeder, though she has been very kind all along. If she is disappointed, she doesn’t say so. My girl’s littermates across the country are already making great strides in dock diving and field work. But we live in a city. Just to get her to swim we had to drive to a swimming pool club for dogs in another city. I am going to stick with agility (chemo allowing), but I am not worthy of my dog. It seems the high aptitude is all on her part and none on mine. Please, breeders, be forgiving of people like me. I don’t know how far we will ever get, but I am doing my best.
 

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Kate
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I'd even venture that "best match" is at play in scenarios where it may seem that some breeders are excluding entire categories of potential owners. I believe I like "the look" of "field goldens" more-so than "show goldens". (Please, no one crucify for that last statement. I know how it must sound to hobbyists, but it's stream-of-consciousness and my best attempt at verbalizing something I've learned about myself and the breed over the past two (2) years.) But, I now understand that there's no way we'd be a good home for a golden specifically bred for the field, as we really need a lower-energy model. So, excluding some groups from a list of potential owners for a litter bred with expectations of specific traits makes sense (to me).
What is a field golden to you - or do you have an example?

Odds are people know people who have dogs they can live with, who also happen to come from pretty dynamic bloodlines. Not everyone is aiming for completely crazy. ;) They could probably suggest somebody that has a litter that would fit.

Flipside of that - I can guarantee that if I met you at a show and you came up to visit with my dogs and told me that you were looking for a lower energy model... you would see me biting my lip and looking at the boy in the picture below....

882731


Cute little bug, eh?

Showing him this past weekend, I had to walk him for an hour with some jogging before we showed just to take the edge off.

When I take him out somewhere and he knows he is going to get to run - he's a singer. He gets that excited and hyped up and he's about knocked me over getting out of the car and taking off running as fast as he can.

I love this type of dog for training with - I'm hoping to get back into obedience with him because I guarantee I never have to work to motivate him "up" and get him "up".

If you approached me at a dog show - I'd be honest and tell you that with this breed, there's a lot of dogs like mine. It's not a given or should not be assumed they will be slugs.

W/R to field/performance bred goldens - I've only seen one that I'd categorize as out of control. And I think part of the issue was a miscommunication issue between him and his owner (who was older and has since past away). That owner was pretty loud and rough handling with the dog - and I think to a certain extent you had high energy + anxiety with that dog. He worked extra hard trying to be right - which meant he could be pretty frenzied when worked up.

Also - as Sharon mentioned above, some performance breeders will have big dynamic breedings lined up where they are using a big field dog either current or frozen and you don't have a chance at those litters if you are even a novice trainer. Those same breeders also do breed to CH dogs who have been proven in other sports (they have the titles, plus people have had an opportunity to see the dogs work). One I can think of - her dogs were super mellow in obedience classes that I remember. Definitely easy to live with.
 

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I absolutely agree that Obedience competition success is determined more by the trainer’s skill than by the dog’s attributes. I don’t care about first pick when choosing a puppy but I find there’s often one or two puppies in a litter that I don’t want, because of some behaviour that indicates a possible undesirable personality trait, such an noise sensitivity, timidity or aloofness.
My mentor bred her own obedience dogs in the days before Volhard testing and her primary test was to toss out a rolled up sock for each puppy to retrieve. If it ran out and picked up the sock, that was good, but if it brought the sock back to her, that was even better. She also considered much the same elements as the Volhard test, as well as behaviour within the litter; she would never keep a quarrelsome puppy, for example.
Like many breeders I know, she actually preferred to place her puppies into pet homes. Sadly, there are some competition homes where the dogs are regarded as a tool for success, like a bicycle. When success doesn’t follow, the dog gets the blame, even if it’s the owner/trainer’s fault.
 

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@SoCalEngr While I think most hobby breeders prefer a good chunk of their puppies go to pet homes, finding good pet homes can be difficult. As a sort of counter to the preferring pet homes thing: I would say the majority of pet homes/pet people don't have a clue. They have zero clues about many things and that can be extremely frustrating and exhausting. Thanks to several cultural movements, many, many pet homes have been brainwashed into thinking that crates are cruel, no matter how they're used and that a correction of any type is abuse. Thus the many posts on this forum of "Help! My puppy is biting me! Redirecting isn't working" or "Help! My puppy won't come when called" or "my puppy pees everywhere!" or or or or or.................... you name it, they ask it and when you ask what they've done to correct the problem the answer is nearly always "Well I told him nicely to stop" or "I offered him a toy instead" or something else that is not even close to communicating to the puppy in a way that it can understand that it did something undesirable. I think a lot of these problems boil down to the extreme anthropomorphization of dogs. It's these types of pet homes that are going to have a harder time getting a puppy from a hobbyist, IMO. I'm not saying it's not ok to ask these questions or that it's not ok to be inexperienced. Everyone has to start somewhere! After all, Rocket is my first Golden and I used to very much be a clueless pet person. The difference, I think, is that I was extremely willing to learn and saw very quickly that the pet person way and the trainers that cater to pet people weren't getting me where I wanted to be with this dog. BUT when you're looking for your 5th Golden and you're STILL unwilling to crate train and your last 4 Goldens were unbelievably obese yet you say they're just fluffy, you're not getting a puppy from me. Sorry, not sorry.

There is a distinction I think between pet people and dog people that is not limited to pet homes vs. hobby homes, where "pet people" = the majority of the general public wanting pets only. The fur moms/dads. The folks that treat their dogs like humans to the extreme. Then there's "dog people". Those that understand that a dog can be treated like a dog and simultaneously be a cherished member of the family. They understand that these two things are not mutually exclusive. I would say that hobby breeders and competitors in various sports do make up the majority of dog people, but there are those rare pet homes out there that are dog people too. They just get it. They know they aren't going to crush their new puppy's soul by training it properly and with good communication. They understand that crate training is a wonderful, indispensable tool for the dog's entire life. They understand that appropriately correcting a mouthy puppy for biting isn't going to scar it for life and a proper recall is a "have to" skill, not an "if you feel like it today" skill. These are the pet homes that are going to have an easier time making the cut among a pool of applicants in a well-bred litter.
 
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