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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A few days ago, I came across some dogs in the OFA database whose kennel name I recognized as being an "English Cream" breeder. It was 2 females and a male. The females share the same sire. All 3 of these dogs were showing Moderate ratings, 2 of them were Moderate Unilateral.

Yesterday, I looked again and these dogs have disappeared from the database. I KNOW that they were there but now there's no record of them. I emailed OFA, not to ask about the ratings but to ask why the records were removed. Since I didn't ask permission to post the reply, I will just say that it was verified that they were removed.

I just took a look at the website of the breeder and although they have removed the reference about breeding the male to one of the two females, it still has the male listed as one of their studs. The two females are listed as going to be having their first litters later this year. In addition, they have a litter sired by the male that was born 4 days before he received his rating. The mother of that litter has no clearances listed in OFA or CERF and is listed on the website as being the sister of one of the 2 bitches listed above.

I'm angry because it's fairly obvious that these people had no clue what they were breeding. They just took the "English Creams are healthier" BS and ran with it. Now they have 3 dysplastic dogs. The other thing that makes me angry is that because the results aren't being publicized, if these people decide to continue breeding these dogs, there is no proof available to show the public what is going on.

Sometimes I wish I didn't love this breed so much because then I probably wouldn't get so angry when I come across "breeders" like this.
 

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Tracer, Rumor & Cady
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it is sooo incredibly frustrating when you can see the deception and can only pray the people that plan to purchase puppies from such people - find their way to the information that will stop them from putting money in the 'breeders' pockets.
 

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A few days ago, I came across some dogs in the OFA database whose kennel name I recognized as being an "English Cream" breeder. It was 2 females and a male. The females share the same sire. All 3 of these dogs were showing Moderate ratings, 2 of them were Moderate Unilateral.

Yesterday, I looked again and these dogs have disappeared from the database. I KNOW that they were there but now there's no record of them. I emailed OFA, not to ask about the ratings but to ask why the records were removed. Since I didn't ask permission to post the reply, I will just say that it was verified that they were removed.

I just took a look at the website of the breeder and although they have removed the reference about breeding the male to one of the two females, it still has the male listed as one of their studs. The two females are listed as going to be having their first litters later this year. In addition, they have a litter sired by the male that was born 4 days before he received his rating. The mother of that litter has no clearances listed in OFA or CERF and is listed on the website as being the sister of one of the 2 bitches listed above.

I'm angry because it's fairly obvious that these people had no clue what they were breeding. They just took the "English Creams are healthier" BS and ran with it. Now they have 3 dysplastic dogs. The other thing that makes me angry is that because the results aren't being publicized, if these people decide to continue breeding these dogs, there is no proof available to show the public what is going on.

Sometimes I wish I didn't love this breed so much because then I probably wouldn't get so angry when I come across "breeders" like this.
Post the name of the breeder, and a recommendation for anyone considering purchasing a puppy from them to INSIST upon seeing OFA documentations. It was on a public site, you saw it, you would be telling the truth. It would then be up to buyers to do due diligence, and the "breeder" to prove that the dogs are cleared if they claim so.

Believe me - I know how you feel. I am several tens of thousands of dollars poorer because of caring.
 

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The only thing we can do is to keep pounding away that people need to see clearances BEFORE they go to look at puppies. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of people who do not realize what clearances are or why they are important. And what is so frustrating in this case is that puppies from these dogs have a much higher chance not only of being dysplastic but of being moderately or severely dysplastic, which means pain and suffering for them and their owners.
 

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Taking a screen print of documentation you see online is a good way to keep your own records. I've also copied source code...
And that is why I have literally thousands of documents as related to the case I was involved in.

The Wayback Machine is also a good way to capture web pages.
 

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And that is why I have literally thousands of documents as related to the case I was involved in.

The Wayback Machine is also a good way to capture web pages.
I forgot about the other sources for capturing old pages. Thank you for the reminder.

I've also kept most of my email messages when I was involved with an organization in case anyone comes a knockin' on my door...Live and Learn.
 

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I had a woman call me last week and I spent about an hour on the phone with her. She was from CT and wanted an "English Cream." LOL She was putting a deposit on a puppy without the clearences and all, having him shipped from either Indiana or Illionis.(Forgot where she said this breeder was from and she also gave me the website) She was refered to me by a couple different people that have dogs of mine. The price she was willing to pay and was paying is $3300 including shipping fees! I was appauld. She was in such a big hurry to replace their family golden that just passed. I tried educating her about clearences, slowing down, waiting and not rushing into the first pup that came along, type, relationship with breeder for the life of the pup, ect. But, she just didn't really want to hear anything. She wanted a "Cream" something of different color of beloved golden. She only wanted to hear what she choose to hear. It is really fustrating no matter how good your intentions are when folks just rush out to buy the next best thing.

My point is some people are willing to walk into deception even when they are being educated. I am glad to see you are really reshearching the breed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The name of the breeder

The breeder is White Oak Golden Retrievers in West Virginia.

The dogs are:

Crystal Belle of White Oaks - sired by Kalocsahazi Itt-ott out of Almost Heaven Crystal Nell. She is rated Moderate.
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295956

Sugar Baby of White Oaks - sired by Kalocsahazi Itt-ott out of Mercy of White Knights. She is rated Moderate Uni (there was no indication of which side was affected).
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295955

Sampson of White Oaks - sired by Platinum Ice Of The Morning Valley out of Divinity Snow From Mariannehouse. He is rated Moderate Unilateral Left. This is the sire of one of their litters listed on their site right now
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295951

The website once declared that the dogs were AKC, OFA (http://web.archive.org/web/20080704173505/http://www.whiteoakgoldenretrievers.com/) - now it just says AKC. They've also removed the links that they had to the dogs' K9 Data pages. I did have the ratings listed on k9data but there is a rule that says that if a listing isn't verifiable with OFA, it can't be added. I'm going to email the admin with what I know and see if they will make an exception in this case though.


 

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This is an incredibly common issue, where disreputable breeders claim certifications they don't have or claim "health tested," "genetically tested" or other misleading qualifications that can't actually be proven or disproven. It's unlikely that breeding dysplastic dogs will cut too much into their bottom line.

My least favorite line: "To reserve a puppy a non-refundable deposit of $500 (British Cream) and $200 on (American Goldens) must be made in advance." It's a telling illustration of the caché that "British Cream" has.
 

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Shoregold
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Red Flags....There site does not mention one full registered AKC name, clearance. I needs some help understanding what they call English Cream. They said the only difference is color and size to the American golden. I have goldens in my line that are very light does that mean they are english? I wouldn't charge a different price for color. If it is a true breed from England how are they registered here with the AKC? I think it is terrible we can not educated people enough about clearances, color, health, being taken advantage of......
 

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Robin
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The breeder is White Oak Golden Retrievers in West Virginia.

The dogs are:

Crystal Belle of White Oaks - sired by Kalocsahazi Itt-ott out of Almost Heaven Crystal Nell. She is rated Moderate.
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295956

Sugar Baby of White Oaks - sired by Kalocsahazi Itt-ott out of Mercy of White Knights. She is rated Moderate Uni (there was no indication of which side was affected).
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295955

Sampson of White Oaks - sired by Platinum Ice Of The Morning Valley out of Divinity Snow From Mariannehouse. He is rated Moderate Unilateral Left. This is the sire of one of their litters listed on their site right now
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295951

The website once declared that the dogs were AKC, OFA (http://web.archive.org/web/20080704173505/http://www.whiteoakgoldenretrievers.com/) - now it just says AKC. They've also removed the links that they had to the dogs' K9 Data pages. I did have the ratings listed on k9data but there is a rule that says that if a listing isn't verifiable with OFA, it can't be added. I'm going to email the admin with what I know and see if they will make an exception in this case though.


Not only are these people breeding dogs with no idea of what their scores on the clearances would be, but it looks like they also got some of their breeding dogs from a puppy broker. The kennel "Kalocsahazi" is a breeder in Hungary that supplies puppies to brokers like europuppy.com (http://www.europuppy.com/dog_for_sale/golden_retriever_11780.html), and probably others. The reason I know this is because a couple of years ago I got a call from a woman who was looking for a pup and had put a deposit down on one from this broker. She wanted to know what I thought about it, and I told her honestly that it was a horrible idea, that she was paying way too much for a puppy and pedigree she knows nothing about, not to mention the fact that she had no idea how the puppies had been raised, socialized, etc. She listened to all my advice and ended up ignoring it because she wanted a "British Cream", and didn't want to spend the time waiting and researching reputable breeders, and she definitely couldn't wait the 6 months or so until I would have puppies available. Like others have said in this thread, it is infuriating to see irresponsible "breeders" who are willing to deceive the public, but it is also frustrating to see buyers who are completely unwilling to learn and who rush into buying a puppy the wrong way. :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Ooh, did anyone else notice that the puppy at the link that Halia posted is "reserved for Kevin". There's also a male reserved for Kevin as well. Hmm...I wonder if White Duck is bringing in some new bloodlines? :(
 

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Well, it does just say (AKC, OFA) and doesn't say what the OFA rating was :uhoh: Not an out and out lie :doh:
 

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I would just like to add that there are irresponsible, disreputable scumbag breeders in American type dogs AND "English"/European type dogs....

scumbag breeders are scumbag breeders and they exist all over the place.

s
 

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Ooh, did anyone else notice that the puppy at the link that Halia posted is "reserved for Kevin". There's also a male reserved for Kevin as well. Hmm...I wonder if White Duck is bringing in some new bloodlines? :(

Oh, I seriously hope NOT......I can't stand the thought of WD bringing in any new anything.......................................:yuck:
 

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Educate yourself, stick to the facts, Breeder want to be's !!Check Yourself!!

**RAGTYM** given your postings it is obvious you are a breeder want to be that is highly uneducated on any dog pedigree much less the business of dog breeding. I suggest you publicly admit your projecting a breeder "agenda" that is foolishly misrepresenting not only yourself, the dogs but more importantly People that depend on the integrity of the Owner who is able to stand behind the reputation and brand. And I do mean White Oak Golden Retrievers in West Virginia. As an owner of this brand, valued customer and educated person on the subject you have no place to discredit this fabulous company. White Oak Golden Retrievers is the best at what they do hands down...just ask the their customers...oh wait your not one yet!
 

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**RAGTYM** given your postings it is obvious you are a breeder want to be that is highly uneducated on any dog pedigree much less the business of dog breeding. I suggest you publicly admit your projecting a breeder "agenda" that is foolishly misrepresenting not only yourself, the dogs but more importantly People that depend on the integrity of the Owner who is able to stand behind the reputation and brand. And I do mean White Oak Golden Retrievers in West Virginia. As an owner of this brand, valued customer and educated person on the subject you have no place to discredit this fabulous company. White Oak Golden Retrievers is the best at what they do hands down...just ask the their customers...oh wait your not one yet!
Regardless of who Ragtym is and/or their future plans... it does NOT change the fact that you, White Oak Golden Retrievers, breeds dysplastic dogs despite their poor, non-passing rating on OFA. It is you that needs to explain your agenda because as far as we can see, White Oak Golden Retrievers doesn't abide by the Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of Ethics. Shame on you for ruining this breed by intentionally breeding dogs with genetic disposition to hip problems.
 
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