[Pointgold]

Question: What is your opinion of Sir Dudley Marjoribanks? Was it unethical of him to create the Golden Retriever 141 years ago, then a designer dog, by crossing a yellow lab with the Tweed Water Spaniel, Irish Setter, Bloodhound, and St John's Water Dog?

The world isn't what it was 141 years ago. 80%+ of the population lives in cities and only 7% of the population hunts. We drive cars to work, live in carpeted houses with 1/3 acre yards, get our food from supermarkets, prevalence of asthma is up greatly, and both members of the household work full time jobs.

The Golden Retriever has the combination of ranking 4th of all breeds in intelligence/trainability as well as arguably the best temperament of all breeds- being laid back, eager to please, tolerant of children, trainable, are touch and sound insensitive, and make good assistance dogs. But they also weigh 55-80+ lbs and are terrible shedders making them a very difficult breed for most people to own in today's world.

So what is so wrong about breeders working to get the golden traits in a smaller, low shed package? Is it health problems? No, crossbreeds are more healthy due to hybrid vigor. Is it that the owners are unhappy? No, there are a heck of a lot less labradoodles in the shelters compared to Golden Retrievers (just ask Obama, he's trying to find one.) There is no lack of demand, in fact people are willing to pay more. So what could it possibly be really?

Okay, here's where you lost me: "No, crossbreeds are more healthy due to hybrid vigor."

This is an absolutely false statement. A hybrid is NOT the result of crossing two (or more) breeds. It is the result of crossing two SPECIES. And crossbred dogs are NOT more healthy.
What it is, is that knowledgeable breeders KNOW that the marketing of Doodles, Noodles, Orkis, Poos, etc etc is a marketing scam. Because they are NOT what those who breed and sell them (for exhorbitant prices) claim that they are. The "breeders" of these mutts (face it, this is what they are, and I won't apologize to anyone who feels that is a derogatory or politically incorrect term - heck, Obama called himself a mutt...) rarely, if ever, do genetic health clearances on the parents of these crosses, and we all know that Goldens and Labs can have HD/ED, SAS, thyroid issues, eye problems, etc. Poodles can have HD/ED, SAS, eye problems, Addison's Disease, etc. If any of those health issues are present in one or both parents, breeding them increases the chances of the offspring having them, as well. They don't magically go away because they are "hybrids" (which again, they are not).
Part of the problem is that just because you don't look for it it doesn't mean it's not there - and I know of very few people with mixed breed dogs who do health clearances such as hip/elbow radiographs, cardiac testing, or CERF eye checks, and having worked for many years as a vet tech, I'll tell you that mixed breeds have more than their share of health issues that very well could be any of those problems. But without checking for them, they will never know.

Stating that there are a heck of a lot more Golden Retrievers in shelters than there are Labradoodles (or Goldendoodles) would be because THERE ARE A HECK OF A LOT MORE GOLDEN RETRIEVERS THAN THERE ARE GOLDEN/LABRA DOODLES. And anyone who has done rescue will tell you that the vast majority of the Goldens that ARE in shelters or rescue are not the result of reputable breeders, but rather BYB's, HVB's, and mills. And THOSE are the "breeders" who pay little attention to the standard, health issues, and temperaments, but rather worship the almighty dollar.

 

[Pointgold]

There are no doodle rescue clubs because there are no doodles needing rescueing.
quote]

Again, false. There are plenty of Doodles turned into shelters and rescue groups - usually to the rescues of one or other of the purebred parents. (Their "breeders" were not inclined to take them back, unlike reputabe and responsible breeders of purebred dogs who not only will take a dog back, but insist on it contractually).
I have seen no less than a dozen Doodles in my classes, and I know of only 2 who remained with their original purchaser, because they were not what they had been sold as. They shed. A lot. They were larger or smaller than what they had been told they'd be. They were difficult to live with for a number of reasons - not the "calm, laidback dogs" promised by the breeders.

 

[Pointgold]

I agree with Hank and PG. It is absurd to promote golden-doodles as the best of both breeds genetically, which is what people seeking them always naively believe. They are just as likely to be the worst of both breeds. . . It is just an insult to the careful, well-researched breeding programs of fine poodles and fine goldens to blithely cross together two less than exemplary members of each breed and call it a "doodle". There are at least twenty doodles here in Falmouth Maine, out and about in the parks and beaches, and so far none(zero) of the owners know what health clearances are. I have been actively (hopefully subtly) inquiring.

"It is just an insult to the careful, well-researched breeding programs of fine poodles and fine goldens to blithely cross together two less than exemplary members of each breed and call it a "doodle".

The key words here are "less than exemplary members of each breed".
Reputable, responsible breeders who have worked diligently to produce the best dogs that they can, to maintain the integrity of their breed, and to improve their own lines, are NOT going to allow their good dogs to be cross-bred. Shoot, we use limited registration so people don't randomly breed them to other Golden Retrievers, let alone Poodles. You aren't going to see the sires and dams of Doodles winning at Westminster. You wouldn't be likely to see them even making the cut at a local all-breed show. Snobbish? No. Honest. The quality of the dogs being used for "designer dogs" - MUTTS - is marginal, at best. These breeders DO NOT CARE, as long as it's a Golden, a Labrador, or a Poodle, and intact. I know. I've had people call me to ask to use one of my "studs" or to see if I want to "mate one of my females" to their "stud". After asking who referred them to me, I learned that they'd just asked around for Golden breeders, never telling anyone they were breeding Doodles. They knew nothing about my dogs, and didn't even ask. Not about clearances, not about temperaments, not about size. THEY DO NOT CARE. With no regard to any of the most important components of a good breeding, believe me, there is little chance of the resulting offspring being "healthier" than the average BYB or puppy mill dog.

"Hybrid vigor" my arse. We aren't talking about growing sweet corn, here.

 

[Pointgold]

The difference is that Lord Majoribanks was trying to produce a specific result by breeding to these different breeds. For example, the Bloodhound added a better "nose" to the breed.

The Labradoodle was originally bred as a "non-shedding" seeing-eye dog. The Goldendoodle doesn't share those origins. Some Labradoodle breeders are actually working (and have been working) for several generations to try and establish an actual "breed". The Goldendoodles have just NOW started a organization for that end. "Comfort Retrievers" have absolutely no use except to be apartment-sized Golden Retrievers. :doh:

Now to play devils advocate for a minute but first I am NOT NOT NOT NOT advocating for Goldendoodles. I honestly can't understand why someone would want to ruin a perfectly good breed like the Golden (sorry Poodle people).

However, I have done some research on "hybrid vigor" and found that it does exist between animals of the same species, particularly in cattle. It has been found that the first generation of one breed to another breed will produce individuals with "hybrid vigor". But, it only occurs with specific traits, usually size, fertility, & speed of development. It is not an overall improvement. This phenomenon has been well documented in cattle, not so much in dogs. The F1 or first generation usually receives the most benefits from cross-breeding with an approximately 50% reduction in those benefits everytime the F1's are bred to other F1's or back to the parent breed.

So basically, while the first generations MAY be healthier in SOME traits, any further crossbreeding can result in the loss of those advantages but that is not something that is well-advertised by the Goldendoodle breeders.

If the Goldendoodle is looking for eventual acceptance by AKC or any other purebred registry, they will have to give up one of their major advertising points because they will have to establish many generations past the point where hybrid vigor is actually even a factor.

Again, not meaning to be disrespectful to anyone and NOT defending Goldendoodle breeding in general, but there are Goldendoodle breeders who ARE doing health testing on their dogs. I have found one breeder with several dogs with CHIC numbers! I'm sure that like with Golden Retriever breeders, there are good and bad breeders.

One of the biggest differences that I have seen between Golden Retriever and Goldendoodle (Labradoodle) breeders lately is the response to Obama's dog search. For the most part, the purebred breeders are more hesitant to put their breeds out there for consideration because they understand what having their breed in the White House would do to sales of that breed of puppy and what the result would be in the end, more pups in shelters. The Doodle breeders are looking at this as an opportunity to sell MORE puppies and get MORE exposure for themselves - I have seen this stated over and over again on their breeder boards. With all the press in the last few days over the Labradoodle, I have heard ONE dissenting opinion about the Obama's choosing a Labradoodle and that came from a Doodle rescue group.

Okay, enough rambling for now. Sorry if this is kind of rambling and jumbled. I didn't get a lot of sleep so my thought processes are a little scrambled.

Ragtym

LOL. Unless you are a geneticist (and even if you are, or, maybe because your are :curtain I find most discussions about this topic always are rambling and jumbled!

I appreciate your post. You are referring to the heterosis effect.

I've opened another thread - Genetics 101 (Mendel for Dummies) and hope that the whole topic will be discussed more (and without hijacking other threads!)

 

[Pointgold]

Deleted reply and reposted in appropriate thread.

 

[Pointgold]

With respect to the OP, a new thread has been created to continue this disscussion, so this thread is returned to the topic intended.
you'll find it here

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=49644

Thanks, Hank. I'll repost my reply there, as well.