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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
At upland training this past saturday I was talking to one of the members ( Roger) about training BaWaaJige with out an e-collar. He said that I was doing a good job with him and had I ever looked at any of Mike Stwarts videos. I hadnt heard of him. He has the Deke and Drake(?) the 2 dogs that are used for Duck Unlimited.

My question is has anyone here looked at his videos? Would they be worth purchasing?
 

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I'm very fond of BowWowFlix.com: Dog DVD Rentals | Dog Training Dvd | Dog Dvds | Rent Dog Videos It's like netflix for dog junkies. Even if you joined for a month, so you could check it out yourself, it could potentially save you a bunch of money if you don't like it.

Training/trainers can be such a personal choice. What one person loves another abhors, and if that style doesn't suit you, it just won't work. If you don't believe in a training method, there is no way your dog is going to believe in it. Golden's are much smarter than that!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks. I know what you mean. I have Fowl Dawgs and Smart Works. I have taken some of the stuff and worked into what I want for Jige. I did watch a few youtubes of Wildrose and I liked what I saw but they sure were short.
 

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I shoot, they fetch.
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It would not be the route I would go if I were hoping to have a dog do upper level hunt tests. Just not enough focus on developing the momentum and eventual precision on blinds needed for those venues. Personally, I want that in my hunting dogs, too!
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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I have to agree with Shelly.
If you're going to play retriever games in North America that include blind retrieves, The wildrose method will probably come up a little short. Stick with Smart Work, Fowl Dogs or Lardy.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
But those ones use the e-collar. At this point I dont want to go that route. Thanks for the imput I appreciate it.
 

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I shoot, they fetch.
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The sequential building of skills that those programs use is the foundation you will need for that work, though. So even if you choose to not use as e-collar as the reinforcement tool, you do still need to sequentially build up the skills--these programs all cover those steps--the actual skills the dog has to learn. You will just have to find a different way to correct and reinforce. The problem with the WR DVD is that it lacks the systemization that is going to get you the control required to be successful in those tests. You would be better looking at the standard programs for their sequence of skill building, and then pair it with a study of something like what Lindsay Ridgeway has been doing to shape the behaviours, or even the James Spenser books.
 

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Riot's mom
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But those ones use the e-collar. At this point I dont want to go that route. Thanks for the imput I appreciate it.
I understand that. However, I think it would be BETTER to use another program and work around the e-collar issue than to use a program that may come up short. Just because you don't use the collar doesn't mean you can't use the program. It just means that you will have to figure out how you will correct issues on teaching how to handle (run up, just verbal, etc). At least, that's my opinion. I guess it just depends on what your goals are...

And another book, in addition to those suggested by Shelly, would be Motivational Training for the Field.
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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Ultimately, it comes down to what your goals are for Jige. If you're not intending to do anything in the field beyond a JH or WCX, the Wildrose and other similar programs can get you there. If you wish to pursue a SH, MH or beyond you should be looking at Smart Work, Fowl Dogs and others along those lines.

This is an important point to understand. The Wildrose method was designed and intended to create a good basic "gundog". It was NOT intended to be a program to create a competition retriever in the US or Canada.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Thank you all. I wrote down the names and the book so I can check them out.
I guess what I am trying to find is someone that has the corrections down or can see what type of correction is needed when you dont use the e-collar. I am flying solo here. I do use some of Fowl Dawgs ( taught Jige to hold) and some smart works but if all they use is e-collar correction and I am unsure what correction might work....does that make sence.

Swapcollie....my goals for BaWaaJige are lofty and I probably wont achieve them all. I would love to train and handle him all the way to a MH and beyond. I want to see my little field bred dog get his conformation CH title. I plan on doing obedience and rally and if I get my health back in check I want to do agility too. Plus we are signed up and ready for Therapy class and getting his cgc. Yep I have big plans for this golden boy.
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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I'll get my crayons out and see if I can shed a little light on why there is a difference.

For a basic gundog, the goal of a blind retrieve is recovering a downed bird. "How" it does it isn't quite as critical as just getting it done so we can have roast duck for dinner.



The handler can take the dog a few yards to the right to avoid most of the obstacles and send the dog on a line. The dog's course will probably be altered by crossing the ditch but not so far as to lose the bird. When the dog has progressed far enough to have likely winded (smelled ) the bird, the handler stops the dog and casts it toward the area and lets the dog hunt it up. Gun dogs' job is done.


The competition dog and handler on the other hand approaches the blind retrieve from a different perspective. All of the dogs in the event can complete the retrieve, they are scored on "how well" they complete the job. That is, challange the line to the blind while overcoming the various "factors" encountered along the way. When the handler comes to the line they look for the "line to the blind". That is an imaginary line from the starting line to the bird. It is the centerline of the "corridor" that the team should strive to stay in during the test. The handler will also look for the factors along the way that could impact the dogs path on the way to the bird. (Trees, rocks, terrain changes, cover changes, hills, ditches, lighting, wind and scent.) In this example the land blind corridor is defined by trees on the right and left.

 

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Grumpy Old Man
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The handler tries to keep the dog on line while it goes over the log, across the ditch, away from the poison bird, past the tree and picks up the bird for which it was sent. Overcoming these various factors are taught and trained abilities. That are learned through a complete, thoughtfull, detailed step by step program. This kind of program approach is required to be successful even at the Senior level.

There is a lot more to a competition dog than a simple basic gun dog, so you need to select training programs and methods that will get you to where you want to be.
 

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the party's crashing us
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For a first time field trainer it is absolutely essential that you find a PERSON to train with. All the books and videos in the world will not get you through it. You can't do it alone. Regardless of the method you need to find someone who has been successful at the level you wish to reach and who's ideas jive with your own. Meeting people at club training days is a great start.
I have not read or watched the Wildrose stuff but from what I've heard they are big on obedience and basically it is a "Basic obedience for gun dogs" system.
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks Swapcollie that really helped alot. Never had it explained that way and the visual aid helped. :)

Annie I belong to a club... Marsh and Meadow or HuntsPoint.
Marsh & Meadows Hunting Retriever Club (HRC) - Brainerd Lakes Area MN Retriever CLub - Retriever Hunt Testing
Hunts Point Club - Pheasant Hunting and Sportying Clays - Brainerd Lakes Area Central Minnesota Hunting Preserve

We are training on Saturdays right now for the upland test in feb. We stopped training days in sept because all of them hunt. Since Jige only went out there July and Aug( 3 and4 mos of age) I have been doing alot of the training on my own. Using what I saw for training at the club but because I wasnt up on the line but standing back as I didnt have my dog yet I am not sure about everything. I am learning and Jige is doing great. The guys at the club told me so and they wouldnt lie.
 

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The handler tries to keep the dog on line while it goes over the log, across the ditch, away from the poison bird, past the tree and picks up the bird for which it was sent. Overcoming these various factors are taught and trained abilities. That are learned through a complete, thoughtfull, detailed step by step program. This kind of program approach is required to be successful even at the Senior level.

There is a lot more to a competition dog than a simple basic gun dog, so you need to select training programs and methods that will get you to where you want to be.
So would that be: Whistle after log, dog is drifting to left of line.
Then left back cast, to counter suction of tree that is to the right.
Whistle before ditch even though she was challenging the line well. You wanted to stop dog before you lost site of her in the ditch and wanted her to drive across the ditch with momentum to carry the line. I think this would have been a right back cast, to fight against the scent coming off the poison bird and the tree. You would rather have her a little fat to right at this point.
Whistle to stop. Rats she is giving into that bird/tree suction. I would be giving a verbal with my right angle back cast, would want to get her out of all that suction.
You let her carry the line a while because she did cast out of the suction, Good Dog.
Whistle sit, my guess she saw/winded the blind on the sit.
Right over cast and she picks up the blind.

Wind, I think there is a lot for me to learn about the effects of wind. Right now I'm just trying to make sure I know which way the wind is blowing when I come to the line.

Thanks Swampcollie, nice post.
 

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Grumpy Old Man
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That's how this particular dog ran the blind (this was a Senior test), not how I think it should be run. The dots indicate where the dog was when the handler stopped it to give a cast.

We often talk about momentum, and confidence on blinds. Each factor encountered by a dog en route, has the potential to sap momentum and cause the dog to question whether or not he's on the right path. When a dog loses confidence it tends to lose its' path as well and go off line.

To help build or maintain confidence, most handlers will stop and cast a young dog before it drops down into a ditch where it could possibly go out of sight for a second or two and get into trouble. They're trying to make their intentions clear to the dog that it needs to get across the ditch, not fall into it and wander laterally off line. They're also concerned about the scented area (feathers) as they come up out of the ditch on the other side. They're trying to give a strong cast to drive the dog across the ditch and through the scent cone on the other side.

In this case the dog did suck into the scented area so the handlers' suspicions about how his dog would react was correct. The dog was drawn to the scent pocket, but was willing to cast away from it without much trouble.

There were a number of handlers that let their young dogs roll, they slowed down at the ditch, hung up in the scent pocket and couldn't be cast away from it. Only after the dog had thoroughly hunted the scent pocket (with numerous cast refusals), did their dogs leave the pocket and complete the blind.
 

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That's how this particular dog ran the blind (this was a Senior test), not how I think it should be run. The dots indicate where the dog was when the handler stopped it to give a cast.

We often talk about momentum, and confidence on blinds. Each factor encountered by a dog en route, has the potential to sap momentum and cause the dog to question whether or not he's on the right path. When a dog loses confidence it tends to lose its' path as well and go off line.

To help build or maintain confidence, most handlers will stop and cast a young dog before it drops down into a ditch where it could possibly go out of sight for a second or two and get into trouble. They're trying to make their intentions clear to the dog that it needs to get across the ditch, not fall into it and wander laterally off line. They're also concerned about the scented area (feathers) as they come up out of the ditch on the other side. They're trying to give a strong cast to drive the dog across the ditch and through the scent cone on the other side.

In this case the dog did suck into the scented area so the handlers' suspicions about how his dog would react was correct. The dog was drawn to the scent pocket, but was willing to cast away from it without much trouble.

There were a number of handlers that let their young dogs roll, they slowed down at the ditch, hung up in the scent pocket and couldn't be cast away from it. Only after the dog had thoroughly hunted the scent pocket (with numerous cast refusals), did their dogs leave the pocket and complete the blind.
I have to ask, how would you have run it?

Nice explanation about momentum and confidence.

Thanks for putting that log in there. I don't think a have run a blind over a log. I'm going to have to go looking for one.
At the my last training session I asked if a should stretch her out more in blinds. I was told "No we are going to pull her in and add more suction. In Season/Senior the distance can not be huge but they are going to add lots of suction to handle though."
 

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I have to agree with Shelly.
If you're going to play retriever games in North America that include blind retrieves, The wildrose method will probably come up a little short. Stick with Smart Work, Fowl Dogs or Lardy.
X2
Got into an issue with Gunner using "Amish" methods.

For a first time field trainer it is absolutely essential that you find a PERSON to train with. All the books and videos in the world will not get you through it.
Not everything is in the books and DVD's
 
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