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Tess and Liza
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been thinking hard about whether I should post this or not, but it keeps bothering me...I've been looking for a golden quite some time now, looking at websites of breeders, reading internet and books etc, and a couple of weeks ago I found a breeder who on the phone sounded just like the person I was looking for. I checked whether she was a GRCA member, AKC, looked up OFA records of the dogs in questions, in short, I think I did my homework. I couldn't find the elbow, heart en eye certificate for the mum-to-be on OFA, but the breeder told me that she would show all the clearances when I would come to visit in the weekend. Having read GRCA statements about breeding etc, I assumed that she would indeed have all the clearances, being a member...In short, she did not have the elbow clearance, and I walked away.
The mistake I made, was to assume that every member of the GRCA who decides to breed, would abide by the 'rules'...Maybe that's very naive...? This afternoon I'm visiting Broadwaygoldens. Having talked to the owners, mailing back and forth and looking over the website and the lines of the mum and dad to be make me feel confident again, but I was feeling rather bad after that visit in the weekend...
 

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Are you naive? Absolutely not!!! If you were naive, you would have just accepted what the breeder told you and you would have walked away with a puppy from parents who don't have clearances. You decided what was important to you in a puppy and you're not going to accept anything less. There is absolutely NOTHING naive about that.

There was a recent discussion on here about elbow clearances. I'll see if I can find it and post the link.
 

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Faux Wanda
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No, you are not naive and I applaud you for doing all of your homework. I learned a long time ago that a web site and sweet talk over the phone do not a good breeder make. I won't even go to visit a breeders kennel until I see all of the clearances. I do most of my research on OFFA, and google the breeders kennel to see if there are any complaints. If there are NO red flags, I then will make an appt. to visit the kennel. I too have been made promises only to go and visit (sometime quite far away) and had to walk away from beautiful litter of pups because of "misinformation". Your diligence will pay off. Good Luck.
 

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Faux Wanda
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There was a recent discussion on here about elbow clearances. I'll see if I can find it and post the link.
I think this is what you were referring to.

Have you discussed this with the breeder? I will catch some flack here but elbows are still one of those gray areas in my opinion.
Did the dog not pass an elbow clearance? Did the breeder not attempt an elbow clearance? Did the breeder take the x-rays but not submit due to some belief/disbelief in the clearance?
When I did clearances on my first bitch in 1998 there were many people not doing elbows on Goldens. I do not believe at that time it was part of the GRCA Code of Ethics for breeding. In her litter in 2000 one of the bitches was diagnosed by OFA as bilatteral grade 1 ED. Of course it was the bitch I kept. None of the peolple I showed the xrays to agreed with OFA's opinion. I redid the x-rays a year later and submitted to both OFA and OVC (Ontario Veternarian College). OFA's diagnosis stayed the same but OVC said she was clear in both elbows. Same exact exrays, both well respected experts two totally opposing opinions. She never has shown any lameness at any time in her nearly 9 years of life.
I did breed this bitch, paying close attention to the dogs in stud's pedigree to ensure there were no 'known" cases of ED. One of the boys in this litter was also diagnosed as bilateral grade 1 ED. We sent the exact same x-rays to OVC and, you guessed it, they cleared both elbows. This nearly 4 year old boy also has never experienced a day of lameness.
So do I bellieve that elbows need to be checked? Absolutely, because there is ED in the breed.
Do I believe that the experts really know what they are looking at and interpreting? No, but I think it is important that we continue looking and testing all breeding stack so that one day they will understand and interpret correctly what they are looking at.
Do I know some breeders, less each year, that due to many stories like mine feel doing elbows are a waste of money? Yes. Does this make them irresponsible? Not neccessarily in my opinion.
Should you get a pup from this breeding? Seeing as you are asking I would probably say no. If you are not totally comfortable with it I think it will linger in the back of your mind and fester into a problem related to something else with the pup later on.
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Hank and the Girls
 

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Tess and Liza
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
To answer Goldhaven: I did discuss it, and she told me that OFA hadn't done the elbows (same time as hips), although she had specifically asked to do both, and she didn't want to do it later because of the incomfort for the dog.
 

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she didn't want to do it later because of the incomfort for the dog.
That's a very poor excuse, in my opinion. I would run away from any breeder who gave me that type of an answer. That shows that she really is not a resposible breeder with an answer like that. I think you did the right thing.
 

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I to an looking for a puppy through a reputable breeder. I have found one. She does not have her eyes and heart listed on OFFA.org but I did hold them in my hands and saw them for myself. We really loved her and her goldens. With that said I came home and started second guessing myself about why they would not have been listed on OFFA and I was being steered tward K9data. I called another breeder who I could see had everything listed on OFFA.org and she said don't go running because you don't see everything. Breeders with several dogs don't list everything because it costs money to list it. I then asked about the breeder that we had met with and I was told she is very reputable and has a great breeding program. This process is very overwhelming! LOL
 

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I've been thinking hard about whether I should post this or not, but it keeps bothering me...I've been looking for a golden quite some time now, looking at websites of breeders, reading internet and books etc, and a couple of weeks ago I found a breeder who on the phone sounded just like the person I was looking for. I checked whether she was a GRCA member, AKC, looked up OFA records of the dogs in questions, in short, I think I did my homework. I couldn't find the elbow, heart en eye certificate for the mum-to-be on OFA, but the breeder told me that she would show all the clearances when I would come to visit in the weekend. Having read GRCA statements about breeding etc, I assumed that she would indeed have all the clearances, being a member...In short, she did not have the elbow clearance, and I walked away.
The mistake I made, was to assume that every member of the GRCA who decides to breed, would abide by the 'rules'...Maybe that's very naive...? This afternoon I'm visiting Broadwaygoldens. Having talked to the owners, mailing back and forth and looking over the website and the lines of the mum and dad to be make me feel confident again, but I was feeling rather bad after that visit in the weekend...
You are not naive, and good for you for doing your homework!! I don't know about their dogs, but I am pretty sure that Broadway Goldens is the breeder referral contact for the local GR club, so that's positive!

Good luck in your search and welcome to the forum from another CT person! :wavey:
 

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Chantilly Goldens
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To answer Goldhaven: I did discuss it, and she told me that OFA hadn't done the elbows (same time as hips), although she had specifically asked to do both, and she didn't want to do it later because of the incomfort for the dog.
That sounds rather pathetic. If I was there for hips and elbows and they just tooks rads of the hips....they would be going back to elbows. Ecspecially, since it takes about 10 seconds to them. You have to pay money and mail in copies of the heart and eyes to OFA for them to be listed. The eye clearances I have on my dogs are not in OFA because I have not sent them but I do have them on paper here at my house and scanned to my computer for sending to stud dog owners, breeders etc. I wish you luck. If you like let me know what state your in and I will PM you some breeders that I may know of :)

Hank, I guess we will both catch flack as I did the same thing. OVC vets are just as qualified as the OFA ones. Anyone who says different should check their facts :)
 

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Faux Wanda
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To answer Goldhaven: I did discuss it, and she told me that OFA hadn't done the elbows (same time as hips), although she had specifically asked to do both, and she didn't want to do it later because of the incomfort for the dog.
Seriously, the discomfort of the dog. If she were that concerned about her dogs discomfort she wouldn't breed her. That is a lame excuse and unfortunately I have heard it before.
I don't know how much you know about the procedure, but OFA only reads the x-rays that the vet sends in. What she told you doesn't make sense to me. My vet always keeps copies of the x-rays on hand and gives me a copy for my records. If she had it done in the first place then and OFA lost it or didn't receive it all she would have to do is resubmit it. Her dog would not have to "go through" anything.
Also, I don't think that the dog is really put through anything uncomfortable. The dog is put under anesthesia and x-rays are taken of the hips and elbows at the same time. This can't be any more uncomfortable than having their teeth cleaned.
I still think you are doing all the right things and asking all the right questions. It really is a learning experience and I hope that this next breeder will be the right one. Please keep us informed about your progress.
 

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SunKissed Goldens
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Congratulations to you for walking away! I don't know the folks at Broadway Goldens personally, but I've seen them at shows and the handler I use finished their bitch Jewels. :)
 

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you are not naive, you were very smart to walk away!
And remember, sometimes the elbow clearances aren't in OFA or aren't recorded because the dog didn't PASS! You have an option to withhold the information, when you fill out the form, if the results aren't good. The dog *might* has passed hips but not elbows, so the breeder *might* have chosen not to have the elbow results published!
 

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Tess and Liza
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I just put in a deposit on a pup! The mum to be is actually Jewels (CH Hillock's A Diamond At Broadway) and the dad to be is Mulder (Ch. Pebwin XPDNC SDHF OS). I'm really very happy about this!
 

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I have a Broadway (breeder in CT) Mulder pup and he is wonderful! He does like to get into trouble, but always lovingly. He has been a very healthy boy. Smart to boot, too! Tucker will be 7 in February.

Okay, are you getting a pup from Broadway Goldens in CT? If so, that would be Rose and Kathy??? That is who we got Tucker from.

OMG! It is Rose and Kathy. They're awesome! I've even brought Tucker back to be groomed so they can see him! I didn't even know they have a web site, but thanks to you I found it! Oh, please, tell them I said hello!

I got so excited I forgot how to spell thanks! LOL Sam is Tucker's Mom. I can't believe she's what, 9 years old now?
 

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I just put in a deposit on a pup! The mum to be is actually Jewels (CH Hillock's A Diamond At Broadway) and the dad to be is Mulder (Ch. Pebwin XPDNC SDHF OS). I'm really very happy about this!
Congratulations! Our pups will be half siblings, as my Bailey is a Mulder daughter!! When will your baby be coming home?!? :)
 

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Tess and Liza
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yes, (s)he is from Broadway, from Rose and Kathy. (S)he will be born around October 16th, so we'll have to wait until half December...But as we live rather close, we'll go up and visit a lot, I imagine.
 

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Yes, (s)he is from Broadway, from Rose and Kathy. (S)he will be born around October 16th, so we'll have to wait until half December...But as we live rather close, we'll go up and visit a lot, I imagine.
Rose and Kathy are incredible. Tucker was returned to them just before he turned a year old because his previous owner couldn't handle him. I will never forget their response when we were loading him up in the car ready to bring him home. They cried. Tucker's contract always makes me smile. They wrote in it that Tucker was unruly, mouthy, overweight and in need of training. We had a clause were we could bring him back if it didn't work out. Well, he was a diamond in the ruff. He is one heck of a smart dog. We adore him! By the way, within 6 months of Tucker living with us, he had his CGC. All he needed was a little bit of training...I wish you many happy years with your Golden!!!
 

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Chantilly Goldens
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Exellent!!! Mulder is beautiful and obviously Kimm can be used as a reference for the Breeder. Great! I am so excited for you!
 

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SunKissed Goldens
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I just put in a deposit on a pup! The mum to be is actually Jewels (CH Hillock's A Diamond At Broadway) and the dad to be is Mulder (Ch. Pebwin XPDNC SDHF OS). I'm really very happy about this!
Congratulations! I bred one of my girls to Mulder 2 years ago, very lovey pups! :)
 
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