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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

My golden is now 6 months old, and my vet suggested i switch her to adult food to slow down her growth. I just have a couple of question i wanted to get feedback on that i didn't get a chance to ask the vet

1. What maximum levels of protein should i avoid for a 6 months old pup? I've read that high level of proteins isn't good for pups, or maybe this is just a myth!

2. What's the big deal with grain-free diets? Is it better and is it ok for pups?

3. What's the deal with Diamond foods? i've read a few posts that talk about an incident about Diamond foods, but dont really explain what happened :|

4. I had narrowed down a couple different food formulas for my golden, maybe people can comment on my lists
a. Orijen Adult (40% protein, no grain...seems to be perfect except for high proteins)
b.Wellness Core (34% protein, no grain)
c. Diamond Pet Foods Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul (24% proteins, seemed balanced between meats and grain)
d. Canidea Grain-Free ALS (34% proteins, no grain...but i can't find any mention of it not using ethoxyquin in it)
e. Diamond Pet Foods Kirkland Super Premium Chicken, Rice & vegetable Adult (24% protein, balanced between meats and grain...it's a lower quality than the others, but it seems very good for it's price)

I'm looking for something that's more meat than grain...but i'm happy with something balanced. With a good dose of protein, trying to avoid by-products and cheap fillers. And obviously trying to avoid ethoxyquin.

Thanks
 

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Off your list I would consider Canidae grain-free ALS, Core, and Orijen.

Diamond Pet Foods had a big recall a few years ago and a lot of dogs got sick/died due to moldy corn in their food. I believe they also use ethoxyquin in their formulas.


Have you looked at Innova or Healthwise? Good alternatives in case the others on your list don't work out.
 

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:confused:
Diamond Pet Foods had a big recall a few years ago and a lot of dogs got sick/died due to moldy corn in their food. I believe they also use ethoxyquin in their formulas.
As far as I have researched you should not feed your dog corn. Is this correct?
I also thought larger breed dogs needed to be on puppy food longer, especially longer than 6 months. I thought more like 2 years...glad I am finding out the answer now!

I feed Castor & Pollux Natural (orange bag) to my puppy but I know they make different foods.
http://www.castorpolluxpet.com/store/dog

I like it and Daisy seems to like it as well. Its also nice to know it is natural and there are no fillers/by-products. They also make an organic food as well.

I haven't had any feedback from any on here about it yet though...:confused:
 

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My breeder had my Oakly on adult food from day one and I continued that. She was a firm believer in the slow growth idea. I have flitted around on the foods so I can't give you a recommendation as I'm not sure I have found the best for my boys yet.
 

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4. I had narrowed down a couple different food formulas for my golden, maybe people can comment on my lists
a. Orijen Adult (40% protein, no grain...seems to be perfect except for high proteins)
b.Wellness Core (34% protein, no grain)
c. Diamond Pet Foods Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul (24% proteins, seemed balanced between meats and grain)
d. Canidea Grain-Free ALS (34% proteins, no grain...but i can't find any mention of it not using ethoxyquin in it)
e. Diamond Pet Foods Kirkland Super Premium Chicken, Rice & vegetable Adult (24% protein, balanced between meats and grain...it's a lower quality than the others, but it seems very good for it's price)

And obviously trying to avoid ethoxyquin.
A few years ago Diamond foods publicly claimed that they required their suppliers to provide them with ethoxyquin free product. However in the past year or two, they have changed their stance and side stepped the issue. They now say that they do not know what substances their suppliers place in food products because each suppliers manufacturing process is proprietary (in other words it's a secret). In my opinion, that simply means, we know our suppliers use ethoxyquin, but we'll just pretend to be stupid.

If you want to avoid ethoxyquin, you should probably avoid any food produced by Diamond. From your list above that would include Canidae, which is also produced by Diamond.
 

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We started Declan on Innova Large Breed Puppy at 9 weeks. He eats 3 cups a day and, according to his Vet during his 12 week checkup last night, his growth pattern looks to be right on schedule. I researched nutrition heavily before deciding on a food for the little guy. At first I leaned toward totally grain free, but the protein levels in most cases were not recommended for pups under one year. The Innova does contain some grain, but no wheat, corn or soy. The ingredients are high quality and they don't use any artificial preservatives.
 

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Unless the food is deficient in some essential ingredient that throws their growth pattern out of whack or the pup develops an allergy, I don't think it's necessary to switch before a year.

Personally, I still want to get him onto a grain free food and think that by one year his skeletal development will be sufficient to handle the additional nutritional density.

It's a subject where there's a lot of differing opinions and it's hard to sort through it all. Fortunately our Vet took the elective course in nutrition and I feel I can trust his advice when it comes to diet.
 

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Wellness Core is NOT meant for puppies. The calcium/phos. levels are too high. EVO falls into this catagory, also.

A lot of research is being done concerning protein levels and large/giant breed puppies. Many now believe it is not the protein level, but the calcium/phos. levels in the food. I'll see if I can find some of the studies. I don't know if I'd feed Orijen to a puppy, but a lot of people on my Dane board have raised their puppies on it with no problems. Some use TOtW also, with really great results.
 

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I've been feeding them Blue Buffalo. I started Leila on adult food for the first few months and her second set of shots were delayed twice because she wasn't up to a decent weight. When I put her on large breed puppy she looked a lot healthier. I'm a big fan of the slow grow method so I'm thinking of trying a different brand for this puppy but BB is the most decent food offered at my pet store so far.
 

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Wellness Core is NOT meant for puppies. The calcium/phos. levels are too high. EVO falls into this catagory, also.

A lot of research is being done concerning protein levels and large/giant breed puppies. Many now believe it is not the protein level, but the calcium/phos. levels in the food. I'll see if I can find some of the studies. I don't know if I'd feed Orijen to a puppy, but a lot of people on my Dane board have raised their puppies on it with no problems. Some use TOtW also, with really great results.
Please post any link(s) you have or find to those studies. More and more of the research on the health problems experienced by animals is pointing toward diet as a major contributor if not as the outright cause. Also, theTOtW looks like an excellent food. Unfortunately its made by Diamond and the ethoxyquin issue is kind of cloudy with them.
 

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When we first got Layla we had her eating Diamond Puppy food. She did not like that food at all. She would hardly eat it and did not gain much weight from 8-11 weeks. We switched her to Purina Pro Plan for puppies and she loves it and grew like a weed! I was always wondering when we should switch her to adult food and if Pro Plan Adult is a good food...
 

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Please post any link(s) you have or find to those studies. More and more of the research on the health problems experienced by animals is pointing toward diet as a major contributor if not as the outright cause.
I am well aware of the health issues related to diet. Having had Great Danes for 30 years, (before my Goldens), diet is one of the most worrisome issues surrounding giant breeds.

Here's one article:

http://www.amstaff.net/HD1.html

Here is a post from my dane board by someone very well versed on nutrition:

I completely agree that the low protein recommendation is the same one I give to the random people on the street who ask me about kibbles. The time it would take to educate them and impress upon them the importance of not over feeding just takes too long.

As for grain free:

Here is a break down of the calories per cup for a few different foods:
TOTW Pacific Stream: 360 cal/c 24%protein
TOTW High Prairie: 370 cal/c 34% protein
Eagle Pack Puppy: 377 cal/c 23% protein
Eagle Pack Hollistic: 403 cal/c 22%protein
Canidae ALS: 468 cal/c 24% protein
Orijen 6fish: 460 cal/c 44%protein
Chicken Soup Adult: 336 cal/c 24% protein
Acana: 375cal/c 23% protein

What is interesting to note is that the protein levels are not directly related to the caloric levels in foods. It is everything else in the food that is pushing the caloric intakes up and down. I think this is one of the main reasons that myself and others feel protein is of the lesser importance in food and feeding it properly you are at no more risk then feeding any other food.

It seems the main cause of true HoD and Hip Dysplasia according to research is caloric intake vs caloric usage. If you are feeding your pup too many calories or supplementing his diet with too many treats/scraps/ supplements you are a likely candidate for growth disorders.

Much of the old school of thought was protein was the contributing factor to growth disorders. Further testing and research have shown this to be false. The main contributors to growth problems are mineral amounts (calcium and phosphorus) and caloric intake v. caloric usage. Many puppy foods overload their kibbles with calories in attempts to stimulate growth, but with dane puppies you really want a moderate calorie amount and moderate calcium and phosphorus. It has been shown that too little protein can cause more problems than too much. Protein causes muscle growth but has no direct relation to bone growth. If you keep your pup slender and healthy then the stress on the joints should be minimal.

One thing to consider when looking at no grain foods with higher protein % is your dog is not consuming on average more protein then he would daily on a 22-25% protein kibble. Your dog eats less normally half or 2/3s the amount of a no grain food that he would eat of a grain inclusive food.

8c grain inclusive at 22% protein and 400cal = 1.76c protein and 3200 calories

5c grain free at 32% protein and 370cal = 1.6c protein and 1850 calories

If you are feeding around 9-10 cups you would be feeidng around 6c- 7c TOTW. I personally would not feed more than 7c a day unless my dog was showing weight loss.

What you find is even tho the protein % is roughly the same daily intake as it is for the grain inclusive you are consuming much less calories. Hence taking some of the stress off your pup's growth. This is because they are getting all the protein and other nutrients they need from a smaller amount of ingested food and none of the waste they get in other foods. Also, meat protein is much easier on the digestive system of a dog than grain proteins. Because of the length of the digestive tract (being short in dogs) they are made to digest meat proteins. Grain proteins take longer in the digestive system to break down and can often lead to a lot of the kibble's grain nutrients never being utilized.

Also for a long time it was thought that too high of protein actually was a detriment in older dogs because it would hurt the kidneys. Studies actually showed in recent years that was not the case and older dogs need as much or more protein than growing puppies and that there was no detriment to feeding them it.

As far as why you see the same thing over and over on a lot of websites is because it was standard for so long. Think about something like the common belief that it was needed that you eat fish once a week to be healthy. This was believed and widespread throughout nutrition and then new research was done. They discovered due to mercury levels in the sea this was a horrible idea and you should cut back your fish intake and eat low mercury fish. It took a long time for that the be accepted and I still know families that do not believe it.

Here's the same posters take on the ethoxyquin issue and Diamond:

Yes, they were referring to Ethoxyquin. When looking at online testimonials you will find some absolutely ridiculous things. People who's dog almost died from XXXX kibble. The interesting thing is, every single dog food has the same reviews and sensational stories. Literally the exact same stories. Some say it is negative PR from competitors, some ignorant or malcious people.

As for fish providing adequate nutritional content.... alone as the only dietary source... probably not. That is why there are plenty of supporting carbohydrates int he food to increase the nutritional value. Is it an adequate source of protein, yes.

Two things about Ethoxyquin that are important to note. First it is FDA regulations that all ocean fish meal being transported in the UNITED STATES have that anti-oxidant in it. The reason you can find it in foods like Orijen and Acana are they are not processed in the US and get all their products from Canada so they are not subject to the same regulations. Second, Ethoxyquin is time sensitive and oxidizes. Which means it decays over time and becomes much less prevelant. The amounts used are already extremely low and within FDA guidelines. ToTW specifically is cooked at 240 degrees and time + heat makes Ethoxyquin oxidize faster meaning even when the acceptable safe amount is used the amount your dog is accutally comsuming is much less then at the time of shiping of the ocean fish meal.

The most important thing is there have been no conclusive studies to show that this is actually harmful at the approved amounts. It is ONLY a known carcinogen at amounts 33times what they are approved to allow in ocean fish meal before the oxidation and cooking even happens. The claims people have made could be due to 1000 other factors and lab tests have proven the oposite. Before you knee jerk because you heard from someone it is horrible get all the information and then make an educated decision.


Quote:
Indeed, for the majority of dogs,
health risks from the ingestion of inadequately preserved rancid fats might be more harmful
than risks from the potential adverse effects of ethoxyquin.
www.grandadventuresranch.com/articles/ethoxyquin_Jean_Dodds.pdf
 

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I use Fromm. It is made by Fromm for Fromm in their own US plant using USDA approved ingredients. They are not manufactured by other companies. They have a large breed puppy food & large breed adult food. They also have their 4 star line, most all of them are considered all stages & can be fed to puppies as well as adults. The are not only ethoxyquin free, they state publically they use ethoxyquin free sources. They also do not use wheat gluten which was also involved in a big recall of Menu foods (another big manufacture like Diamond)
They have quality ingredients & do not use corn. They do have a surf & turf option if you want grain free.
If you have any questions they are very good to either talk with you or get back to you in an email.
They have been in business a long time as a family owned company.
I think their prices are just as good as other brands as with the quality ingredients you don't have to feed as much.
 

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I fed Orijen Large Breed Puppy to my now 2 yr. old lab from 9 weeks of age to 7 months of age. Then I switched her to Orijen Adult. It worked for us: nice even growth, good energy and coat, etc. The Orijen Adult has a maximum of 1.7% calcium which is lower than any other grain-free formulas to my knowledge. Feeding a total of 2 1/4 cups day (55 lb dog) worked well.

TOTW formulas all have higher calcium % plus you have to feed a lot more of them due to their lower calorie content.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks for all the good advices.

I know i may dissapoint some of you, but i went with Diamond Chicken Soup. Take the name away because of the issue they had a few years ago...it's a low calory that's pretty balanced between grain and meat. I'd even say it's got a bit more meat than grain. And it looks like it's got very few low quality ingredients. So this was my first choice

And as for Ethoxyquin...it's hard to say if they have any or not in their product, but I believe that at these levels and after being cooked that it would be in very low quantity.

The other reason i wanted to switch foods early was because i want a food that'll be easily accessible (to buy). The current food i was givin my pup, i had to drive almost 100Km, that's almost a 2 hours drive back and forth to get it. So food like TOTW is harder to get...the local shop has them, but sometimes they run out because i live in Canada and TOTW sometimes has trouble getting through borders because of their ingredients.

But i probably wont stay with Soup Chicken for very long...as soon as i think Bella is fully grown, i want to switch her to a higher protein food like Orijen, Wellness Core.

cheers
 
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