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Discussion Starter #1
Hi All,

I'm new to the forum, although have read loads of posts over the last few weeks.

I have 2 older dogs, but currently have a 19 week old male GR who I'm having a problem with!

I am based in the UK, first of, so can't get a lot of the foods commonly talked about on here (Wellness etc).

I got my puppy at 9 weeks. Since then he's been on a good quality UK food, with protein of 26%. He's always been VERY hungry, which isn't something I've experienced with my other 2 GRs, who've been ok with food, but not greedy like Labs I've previoulsy had. My puppy, Dougal, is very very foody.

At about 12 weeks we had aggression problems with him, which again was unusual for a puppy this age. I first took him to the vet to get checked over in case there was a pain issue. Vet said he thought there was no physical problem, but after discussion gave him some antibiotics in case he had a UTI. He didn't do a urinalysis.

After 2 days of antibiotics he seemed to be weeing less frequently, and the aggression was stopped with behavioural management over time. I then sort of dismissed his constant weeing as just puppy behaviour.

However, over the last 2 or 3 weeks I've come to the conclusion that the weeing is definitely not normal.

First off, he knows, for absolutely definite, to go outside to wee, and has done for ages now. The problem I'm having is that he's weeing LOADS!! By that I mean sometimes every 5 or 10 minutes when he's awake, and they're not small dribbles, but large puddles. Often he's getting out, but also often he seems to have no time between needing to go and going, and so he has lots of accidents as well. He's never given any warning of needing to go, no sniffing, no circling, nothing, just bang, squat and wee. From around Christmas he's also developed a dribble, which is often when he's excited, but also other times he does it sometimes as well.

He doesn't have any incontinence issues when asleep either during the day or at night. He's crated during the night and can now go 7 hours, and is only rarely crated during the day for 2 hours, but this could be maybe once a week at most.

We had a urinalysis done 10 days ago which when the vet dipsticked it in the surgery showed lucozytes (sp?) which he said indicated infection, but when a lab culture was done there was no bacteria found, but struvite crystals were found, and his PH was 8.0.

The vet recommended HIlls C/D and no antibiotics. I wasn't happy with this and phoned HIlls who said def not to put a puppy this young, particularly large breed, on c/d as it's a growth restricting diet. Royal Canin said the same about their s/o.

So, what now?! I'm trying cranberry capsules, putting loads of water with his food, giving him ice cubes to add fluid, but am really not sure what else to do to lower the PH? I can't work it out, 'cos everything seems to say high protein in raw diet, but then the c/d and s/o diets are low protein. There is a fish based dog food over here (Fish for dogs) which I'm not sure if it's anywhere else in the world, but apparently has 75% fish, so if it's meant to be high protein that would figure.

Also, I can't figure out why he'd have the crystals and high PH if there's no UTi? My vet doesn't think this is strange, even though I've said to him everything I've seen says it's a cycle of bacter=high PH=struvite formation, and therefore if you get rid of bacteria then the rest will sort itself out. He has given him now 2 weeks more of antibiotics anyway "just in case", but although again after a couple of days there was definite improvement (he was going perhaps an hour) he's now gone right back to every few mins again.

I really don't know what to do and can't find an explanation for this! I've also looked into the distilled water thing and we live in a soft water area, so I don't think this would be an issue.

I'd really appreciate any advice, and if anyone has any other possible suggestions for the excessive weeing if there's no bacteria?

One other thing to add, have considered diabetes and cushings, but no funny smelling breath, not excessively drinking, no pot belly or loss of muscle tone or hair.........

Help!!

Thanks
Karen
 

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Dr. Rainheart
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I don't have much advice, but the leukocytes you are talking about are white blood cells, so his body is reacting to something. Maybe you can do a urine culture; you may not have been able to find any bacteria on a quick stain. A urine culture involves taking urine right out of the bladder and sending if off to a lab so any bacteria in there will grow. That would be the next step I would go to. I am sorry you are going through this with your pup.

We had a similar issue this summer with a black lab puppy who kept getting all of these infections and we could never clear it up. We had to try a bunch of different antibiotics, so you may have to experiment with that, too.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi,

Thanks for this. Yes, we did a culture 2 weeks ago, although it was from a sample I collected, but the lab couldn't find any bacteria. This is the bit I'm really suspicious about, as I really think if there are crystals in a puppy this young it's likely to be from a bacterial infection, but my vet just kind of shrugs and says "if they've not found any, they've not found any"!

The other thing someone mentioned to me was an ectopic uretha but again I don't think this is the problem as he can go all night without leaking, so it seems like something when he's awake is making him want to go all the time, and producing too much urine!

Thanks again. Hopefully another culture this week may show something up to point us in the right direction!

Was your black lab puppy male/female?

Thanks
Karen
 

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Dr. Rainheart
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Hi Karen,

I would definitely do a culture on a sterile sample and see what you come up with; I've never heard of doing a culture any other way.

The black lab puppy was a male; he wasn't ours, just a client at the clinic I work at. I'm not sure what antibiotic eventually cleared him up, but he was battling this for months.
 

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Hi, I am having the same thing going on with my 8 year old golden. Every 6 months, I have a geriatric profile done on him, including urinalysis. The last couple of times he had white blood cells in his urine, but nothing else. He was on antibiotics for a couple of weeks. Just last week, it was time for his geriatric profile again. It came back again with white blood cells, high PH and some struvite crystals. But there is absolutely no sign of a UTI. I think the high PH this time was, because I could not get Toby to drink any water before going to the vet, and it had been hours without water when the urine was collected. So, I am not too worried about that one. The vet thought that maybe he is trying to develop stones and that the white blood cells occur in the urine when the crystals rub against the lining when he pees. There were no bacteria present ever in any of the urine samples so far. Anyway, I will have a urinalysis done in a couple of months again and see if anything changed. He had the same urinalysis results whether he was on a low protein diet or a high protein diet. So far, he has shown no increase in urinating or any kind of discomfort.
I hope that your pup will be okay. Oh, I think also that putting so young of a pup on the c/d might not be very good for him, since he is a growing pup. But, I am not a vet.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks guys. I'm really at a loss. The reason I asked about the black lab was because my vet is also dismissing the idea that my lad has a UTI because he said they're very rare in males.

I am going to take in another sample tomorrow morning for a culture (but note the sterile sample issue!) and if that still comes back "normal" for bacteria, but raised PH and struvite crystals, then I'll go down the route of a sterile smple and also whilst he's knocked out I'll get an x-ray done of his bladder etc I think.

Good old pet insurance won't pay for this lot. Typical insurance company, manage to wriggle out of everything eh?!

Thanks again
Karen
 

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Why would he be knocked out to get a sterile sample? To me sterile sample is doing a cystocentesis. In that procedure the vet will take a sterile urine sample by inserting a syringe through the abdomen into the bladder and withdrawing a urine sample. That does not require anesthesia.
My vet also suggested cystocentesis next time for Toby and if that came back with crystals to do an x-ray to check for stones.
Good luck to your boy!
 

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Remy's Mom!
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We just had the same issue... Remy had crystals but no UTI. The vet gave us antibiotics and it cleared it up right away... Not sure if that's any help for you but I thought I'd share. Hoping for the best for your pup!
 

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Dr. Rainheart
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He shouldn't need to be asleep to get a sterile sample via cysto. They might be able to do the xray awake, too, as long as he cooperates.
 

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I agree with Rainheart. Amber had the same symptoms and had a UA come back with no bacteria, leukocytes, struvite crystals and a little blood. Vet gave her Clavamox, recheck, still no bacteria, but struvite crystals. I decided to put her on distilled water and recheck. My urine catch showed showed the same result, so we had a sterile sample done in the office. Came out clean. The vet said maybe vaginitis, which wouldn't apply, to your dog, but I'm not sure where the struvite crystals went. We have her on distilled water, Natural Balance Potato and Duck ONLY and have not had a re-occurrence to date, about two months.:wavey:


Hi Karen,

I would definitely do a culture on a sterile sample and see what you come up with; I've never heard of doing a culture any other way.

The black lab puppy was a male; he wasn't ours, just a client at the clinic I work at. I'm not sure what antibiotic eventually cleared him up, but he was battling this for months.
 
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