Why? Seriously, Why??? - Page 3 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 76 (permalink) Old 01-30-2019, 06:20 PM
Member
 
HollyB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 71
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Thanks: 5
Thanked 83 Times in 39 Posts
So.... You come to a Golden Retriever forum, and you read a little. You don't seem to appreciate why we really love this specific breed and why they are special dogs (for starters, the only ones with a temperament clause in their breed standard!), and you think it's ok for Muppets to cross breed any old Poodle with 'my lovely golden (ish)' and it's ok to make 'goldendoodles' because there's a demand? Poodles are REALLY smart dogs - for Poodle enthusiasts! (They're cool, maybe a bit like us, but fuzzier ;0)
Encouraging the whole 'cross breed as a designer dog' thing is a terrible idea for the welfare of dogs in general.
Whilst hybrid vigour is definitely a thing, breeding matters for dogs, for their long term heath, because they've been so horribly manipulated genetically in the past.
Thinking that a cross breed will produce a superior dog is just stupidity. It's just as likely to produce a very ill and disabled dog.
Why would you knowingly do that? Well - you wouldn't, would you? So anyone who does, is either stupid, or doesn't care....
HollyB is offline  
post #22 of 76 (permalink) Old 01-30-2019, 08:13 PM
Kate
 
Megora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MI
Posts: 20,011
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Thanks: 9,245
Thanked 15,155 Times in 7,701 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by watterdog View Post
I have friends with Goldendoodles, who just love them. They shed, but not as much. They (generally) have the sweet disposition of a golden, and very intelligent mind of a poodle. Plus, many golden owners have gone the "doodle route" because of the high amount of cancer in the Golden world.
The doodles that I've met in person are more like poodles. I don't really see golden retriever looks or temperament in them. They are poodle mixes. You have to like poodles in order to appreciate them.

This even includes grooming. The coats are GROSS.

A former boss had a doodle who would be allowed to come into the office to visit us generally any time of the day. Coat was caked with oils and matted. If you pulled the hairs apart to get a look at the skin - you couldn't find the skin because it was just solid mats close to the skin. They don't shed as much because it all sticks in there and mats!

This was somebody who was a yuppy and took great care of his dog - but assumed the dog only needed a groomed every couple months.

And I do not see people with doodles doing obedience with them - so what does that tell you about their intelligence and trainability?


And health? I now know of 2 doodles who died at or before the age of 10 from cancer. This wasn't hemangio (yay?). This was brain cancer. The second doodle was actually a goldendoodle adopted from a shelter for ten bucks. Prior owners dropped him because the kids were allergic to him. He was just 7.


Last edited by Megora; 01-30-2019 at 08:25 PM.
Megora is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Megora For This Useful Post:
Goldens&Friesians (01-31-2019)
post #23 of 76 (permalink) Old 01-30-2019, 11:23 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Rocklin, CA
Posts: 86
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Thanks: 61
Thanked 35 Times in 28 Posts
Several years ago, I visited a friend of a friend that professionally trains services dogs, and had some 6 week old puppies that needed more visitors (my kids were little at the time, so it was a win/win visit). I had just lost my first golden to cancer (osteosarcoma) at 13.5, and was still pretty devastated after only a few months without him. She was breeding and raising labs, so I mentioned about how I kept hearing about Goldendoodles and how wonderful they were. She stopped in her tracks and was very adamant about what a disaster this pairing was, and went into much detail that I sadly don't remember. But I do remember how she literally stopped what she was doing with the puppies and kids to give me her opinion on Goldendoodles, which was very negative.

I've only known 3 myself (1 on the Central Coast of CA, the other 2 around here in Northern CA): all three look like long-haired poodles, none had the sweet temperament of any other golden I've known, all 3 were very stubborn, difficult to house-train and train in general. All 3 sets of owners have complained to me about how frustrated they are with their dogs, and just don't understand why they aren't as sweet-tempered as any of our Goldens. I honestly don't know what to say: my heart goes out to them, but every single one talked about how much their dogs cost (more than our dear Barkley, who I JUST FLEW TO CANADA TO PICK UP!) and how "wonderful" the breeders other dogs were, and they just had to have a "hypoallergenic" dog b/c someone in the family had allergies...

My heart broke in again when we lost our second golden to cancer just 4.5 after adopting him as an adult, but I love this breed with all my heart, so I buckled down, did a ridiculous amount of research, and 1.5 years after starting all the research and looking for the right breeder for us (and adopting another senior golden (of indeterminate age) with health issues in the meantime), we have our B. There are no guarantees in life - I get that. But I feel good about the choice I made in our breeder, and every. Single. Day with B, I see all the work that our breeder put into his lines so that we ended up with a sweet-tempered, easy-to-train, smart, gorgeous golden retriever.

I just don't get the "Goldendoodle" or "whatever-doodle" fad: none of them can hold a candle to any golden retriever I've ever met.
MushyB is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to MushyB For This Useful Post:
Goldens&Friesians (01-31-2019)
post #24 of 76 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 04:45 PM
Supreme Member
 
jennretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 7,329
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 546 Post(s)
Thanks: 15,894
Thanked 9,515 Times in 4,976 Posts
My brother has a Goldendoodle and I love that dog. He's a quirky, sweet boy. I don't presume to judge other's decisions on the type of dog they want to get. And I don't presume that just because a dog is "mixed" that it is any "less"...


Duke (Birthday May 31, 2012)
Charlie (Gotcha Day March 10, 2014)
Rocky (Gotcha Day October 21, 2018)
jennretz is offline  
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to jennretz For This Useful Post:
CAROLINA MOM (02-01-2019), Charliethree (01-31-2019), drew510 (02-07-2019), Emmdenn (01-31-2019), Ivyacres (02-01-2019), LynnC (01-31-2019), Maggie'sVoice (01-31-2019)
post #25 of 76 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 08:21 PM
Golden Ret Enthusiast
 
Maggie'sVoice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,156
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Quoted: 208 Post(s)
Thanks: 903
Thanked 705 Times in 464 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennretz View Post
My brother has a Goldendoodle and I love that dog. He's a quirky, sweet boy. I don't presume to judge other's decisions on the type of dog they want to get. And I don't presume that just because a dog is "mixed" that it is any "less"...

I totally agree 100% but I don't think it's about the dog but the people who breed the 2 breeds together for profit with no concern for the long term health of the puppies they create. I think that is what the issue is. People want what they want for a variety of reasons. The issue I believe for most on this topic is that of people mixing breeds for the sole purpose to make profit.

Eric
Golden Enthusiast


Maggie'sVoice is online now  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Maggie'sVoice For This Useful Post:
Goldens&Friesians (02-01-2019), jennretz (01-31-2019), Sweet Girl (02-01-2019)
post #26 of 76 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 10:27 PM
Kate
 
Megora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MI
Posts: 20,011
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Thanks: 9,245
Thanked 15,155 Times in 7,701 Posts
I love my neighbor's pitbull mix and the other neighbor's cockapoo. Both are very nice dogs. Or were? Haven't talked to the pitbull mix owners in a few months and haven't seen her around.

Where did they come from?

Cockapoo from a petstore.

Pitbull-lab-boxer-other-things mix came from a rescue who had pulled her out of a kill shelter when she was a puppy. <= Her owners got her the same time I got my Jacks. The pups were playmates growing up - same as Jacks was buddies with the minpin next door.

I like dogs and generally like most of the dogs I meet going around the neighborhood - except the nasty sharpei that I won't go into. This particularly includes the different golden people.

Do I know where they come from?

Nope.

Do I care?

No, not at all.

I chat with or wave at people in passing and don't really look at their dogs as anything more than they are. They are beloved pets. A doodle is no different from a lab mix or hound mix.

Do I like the fact that people are deliberately breeding mutts for crazy prices? No. I think it's irresponsible. Supporting it is irresponsible as well.

Doodles - are being pitched as a mutt-breed for everyone, but especially families with little kids. And unfortunately those families are also going to be the ones who do not have time to groom the dogs or money to have them professionally groomed every 3-4 weeks aside from clipping the coats off.

I think this is irresponsible.

Are there some mixed breeds I support? NO.

Are there some that I understand? No.

Are there some breeds I REALLY DON'T LIKE? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that I think they should be mixed with something else to make them more likable.

If you don't like something about a breed? Don't get em. Look at a different breed.

Mixing breeds like hounds and labs and poodles - is tough, because a lot of these mixes are already out there.

Hound mixes? Egad. There was a rescue event I went to a while back and it was all beagles, bassets, and bigger hounds - a lot of hunting dogs that were either puppies or dumped adults. <= My mom grew up with a beagle (and other dogs) so she was heartbroken walking around and seeing all these dogs, the beagles especially. If rescues allowed impulse buys - one would have happened there with my mom.

All those dogs needing homes... gets blamed on breeders like the ones I bought my dogs from. However - it's completely different.

My Jovi - the litter had like 20 people on a waiting list waiting for almost 2 years before the litter happened.

But even other breeders like a friend of mine who owns 3-4 girls with all their clearances... she breeds them when they come into season... I don't know how soon she starts building her waiting lists since she's breeding more frequently... but I do know that by the time she formally announces a litter in the works, all the puppies are already spoken for.

Most golden breeders have long waiting lists and some are pretty protective about who they will sell puppies to. This includes keeping their eyes open for fishy business and sharing it around with other breeders.

Doodle breeders generally are the fishy business which people are watching out for and warning others about.

It's somebody's business whether they breed mutts for profit while lying to puppy buyers about what they are getting in a dog. It's the same type of thing that I see with people in goldens who are breeding dogs that have nothing to qualify them being bred (talking physically - both breed standard and health certs) - this while they are charging a lot and making deceptive claims. Sometimes you hope they are just ignorant of what all needs to be done besides buying breeding dogs and setting up a website or facebook page to advertise from, but at this time with people iin the breed talking until they are blue in the face - there's no real likelihood of them simply not knowing better.

Doodle breeders are the same people as that. It's the same slick selling schemes and fast talking and pushy salesmanship - all designed to get people to open their wallets.

These are the things that bother me the most - particularly since I know a lot of very nice and passionate people within the breed (goldens) from conformation to obedience to field to agility. And there may be splits all over the place, but all these people get together when ti comes to doing the right thing by these dogs. That's full clearances, that's selective breeding, that's not buying more and more dogs to breed just so you are constantly producing product to sell (nobody in their right mind when it comes to being decent would have 40+ breeding dogs kept in a kennel and bred whenever they are in season left and right). Just like nobody who has any intention of becoming a very highly respected and well known breeder, would sit down and start breeding mixed breeds.

A lot of people are skipping over some of the uglier stuff with mixed breed breeders, backyard breeders, puppy mills, and people who use brokers or ship dogs around to be sold in petstores.

They also are skipping over the practical parts of dog shopping - or what people should be doing when looking for their next dog.

They should not be just looking for cute, different, etc....

They have to learn about the breeds and put a lot of serious thought into whether they are an ideal home for these breeds.

With goldens - I overshare the crazy stuff my dogs do and have done (while they are very good dogs!) - because I hate the fact that people think these dogs are automatically trained or easy to train. People in other breeds think that.

But that doesn't come close to understanding a lot of the breeds which the mutt breeders are mixing with poodles.

And actually selecting these breeders and buying puppies from them is paying them to continue doing what they are doing, including the deceptive advertising and irresponsible throwing anything together. And there's no accountability ever with these mutt-mutts, because no breed standard + no organized breed club that anyone belongs to, etc....

Megora is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Megora For This Useful Post:
Goldens&Friesians (02-01-2019), Maggie'sVoice (02-01-2019)
post #27 of 76 (permalink) Old 02-01-2019, 11:54 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Rocklin, CA
Posts: 86
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Thanks: 61
Thanked 35 Times in 28 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennretz View Post
My brother has a Goldendoodle and I love that dog. He's a quirky, sweet boy. I don't presume to judge other's decisions on the type of dog they want to get. And I don't presume that just because a dog is "mixed" that it is any "less"...
I wasn't inferring Goldendoodles/or doodle mixes were less; for me, the mixes just aren't the same as Goldens, and we can't expect them to have the same characteristics as a dog breed to have those characteristics. I'm sure there are many lovely Goldendoodles out there; I haven't met them yet. And I'd take a golden retriever, with whatever issues, over any other dog any day, twice on Sunday
MushyB is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MushyB For This Useful Post:
Goldens&Friesians (02-05-2019), jennretz (02-02-2019), Maggie'sVoice (02-01-2019)
post #28 of 76 (permalink) Old 02-02-2019, 12:11 PM
Senior Member
 
Muddypaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bordentown, Nj
Posts: 3,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Thanks: 198
Thanked 228 Times in 134 Posts
I have a mini Goldendoodle and he is amazing. I also have 3 Goldens and they will always own my heart. Duddy and 2 goldens are rescues and the Princess is from a breeder. Duddy is scary smart, sweet, happy, joyful and believes everyone should be having fun. All my dogs do sports and very smart, easy and fun to train but Duddy has it all over them. I totally get your feelings about "designer" dogs, but every dog is an individual and I know quite a few doodles and they are great dogs. Please don't blame the dog because of the greedy a ?breeder? Wish you could meet Duddy, he's an awesome dog. It's also nice to have 1 "scoopable" dog in the house too!

Can't stop greed but don't blame the dogs, puppy mills churn out goldens.

Vanessa, Kirby, Carlee, Dudley & Trooper

Muddypaws is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Muddypaws For This Useful Post:
Hilabeans (02-04-2019), jennretz (02-02-2019), Maggie'sVoice (02-02-2019), MamaDel (02-04-2019)
post #29 of 76 (permalink) Old 02-02-2019, 01:08 PM
Kate
 
Megora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MI
Posts: 20,011
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Thanks: 9,245
Thanked 15,155 Times in 7,701 Posts
Nobody blames the dogs.

We blame the breeders for the most part.

And people who support those breeders.

Doodles are cute mutts. Mini doodles have been around a long time. They are called cockapoos.

Back when Bertie was in puppy classes - saw this cockapoo being trained by an older woman (in her 70's, I think). Perfect dog, very smart, was ideal for this person.

She had adopted this dog from a rescue.

To this day - I honestly don't know anyone who has bought a cockapoo from a breeder. They are all coming from rescues.

That's the future of doodles once the fad blows over. We're already going that way with more and more doodles showing up in shelters and rescues. This is what happens when people buy poorly bred dogs from bad breeders. Most people love their dogs anyway and sharp instruments come out in defense of everything about their dogs. But when anyone can buy dogs and breeders are motivated to sell to anyone, it's long stretch bad for the dogs.

This is why we all need to support good breeders - and people who are not just breeding for the moment or for the sale.

My personal thing aside from all that is - the Poodle Club of America is at fault for allowing all of this to happen to their breed. The poodle breeders have not worked hard enough to crack down on just anyone buying poodles from them. And even limited registration is not enough discouragement (some people say limited registration when selling to anyone works because people "can't breed"), because nobody is thinking about producing a purebred dog to be registered with AKC.

With poodles being bred to anything and everything - it's just awful for that breed!

I don't personally want goldens to become like that. That's the gut feeling of every protective breeder out there who have been plagued by purchase requests from people who want to breed mutts.

If you wonder why golden breeders (reputable, legit ones) are so micromanaging and beyond difficult to buy a puppy from - this is one of many reasons why. People in general don't mind lying to a breeder's face.

Poodle breeders need to start cracking down and becoming uber protective of what they breed like that and more since the problem is so widespread.

And this involves all breeds since these doodle breeders are literally breeding to anything.


Last edited by Megora; 02-02-2019 at 01:29 PM.
Megora is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Megora For This Useful Post:
Goldens&Friesians (02-05-2019), Sweet Girl (02-03-2019)
post #30 of 76 (permalink) Old 02-03-2019, 02:36 PM
3 goldens
 
3 goldens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas Coast
Posts: 11,545
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Images: 5
Thanks: 138
Thanked 4,626 Times in 1,725 Posts
The term "designer dog" is dumb. They are not designer, they are mixed breeds. It is no different than if the neighbor's blue tick hound jumped the fence and the golden retriever there got pregnant. Would the puppies be bluedens, golden ticks, etc. Someone woudl come up with a name and sell them as unique.


One of the most interesting mixes I ever saw was about 12 or so years ago and it was a golden retriever, shar pei mix and his name was Frankie. The owner had two of the shar pei (not sure of spelling) and then Frankei, that he adopted. Frankie was just the sweetest boy and the owner said he was total golden in temperament . The guy used the dogs to raise money for a mental help/physical disability program. I bought a calendar. I think if I could have sneaked that dog in my purse I would hav. He was adorable. He had the wrinkle,s nose, etc of the shar pei, but his coat was so soft, not coarse, and he had golden ears. I woudl have taken him in a heart beat, but never would I breed dogs to come up with his.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	fr2.jpg
Views:	31
Size:	262.7 KB
ID:	812042   Click image for larger version

Name:	fra1.jpg
Views:	31
Size:	83.0 KB
ID:	812044  

AT THE BRIDGE
SCOOTER 6/14/94 - 8/22/99
BUCK 2/8/95 - 5/15/07
HUNTER 8/19/99 - 10/16/03
KAYCEE 8-19-99 -5-25-08
HONEY ADOPTED GROWN 12/07/02 - 8/13/14
SOPHIE 1/8/04 - ADOPTED 2/17/15 - 10/12/16
GREAT PYRENEES SHAGGY adopted AT AGE 7 8/31/14 - 9/23/14 AGE 7
GREAT PYRENEES SIR MOOSE ADOPTED 9/30/14 ---- 12/5/18 AGE 11 1/2






Goldens bring light into the world.
3 goldens is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to 3 goldens For This Useful Post:
Goldens&Friesians (02-05-2019), Ivyacres (02-04-2019), MamaDel (02-04-2019), Megora (02-03-2019)
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome