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Water Intake Induced Incontinence?

2K views 29 replies 11 participants last post by  Jennifer1 
#1 · (Edited)
Ember has had two spays, with the second finding no female tissue and had all abdominal fat removed. However, in the Spring and Fall has a mini heat, meaning leaks clear fluid, smells different, and acts different (especially cuddliness as isn't a cuddler), especially according to the males. Fall is usually around latter part of October, but didn't really notice it, so figured either smaller or skipped. Now I am really wondering.

Bit of background. We visited family on the 23rd of December, and had an intact male. He was glad to see a female, got a little nosy, and ended up getting snapped at by Ember and his owners, so sent out the first day. Next morning worked with him, and was fine the two days.

Few days later, was unusually cuddly and been only getting more so. Now she is leaking again and smelling different.

Prior times she has had a mini heat there was a male she was fond of and she tease him, maybe let him even go on top, then slip away and tease some more. She lost her boyfriend in the late summer, so is it possible her body was waiting and now responding?

This is why I never want another butchered female canine. Intact/tubal ligation/hysterectomy is so much easier, as obvious, plus don't have innocence all their life (all the females I have owned or lived with have had it).

Thank y'all in advance for the help! :D
 
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#2 ·
I'm not sure I understand what you mean above but if her uterus and both ovaries have been removed, she should NOT be having any kind of heat cycle, mini or otherwise. What does your vet say?

If she had an OSS (ovary sparing spay) or tubal ligation, then yes, she will continue to go into heat. There will be no blood but she will have a fairly normal heat cycle.

A bladder infection can sometimes mimic a heat cycle and boys can get interested.

Mounting behavior is not necessarily sexual behavior-it can be dominance, it can be part of play.

If she had full removal of uterus and ovaries, I would make an appointment with the vet to see what might be going on.
 
#4 ·
Thank you so very much for trying! :D

Seemed simple to me: can an intact dog induce heat in a bitch who prior had no contact with a dog?

It was more of a curiosity due to being an I.N.T.J..

Well, if you consider Banfield a vet, they said do a second spay, and when they got their money for no results, said nothing could be done. I did research and found the brain makes the chemicals also, which could lead to slight cycling. The vet I currently go to says innocence and gave her DES-1 (thought I put that in my post, sorry). A person also mentioned if the spay was done while still having a cycle, could cause this.

Why is everyone want their canines not to go in heat? It's not like Ember will die from this, she is already five years old.

I didn't want to ruffle feathers, but since you aren't understanding...

The Almighty made animals perfect, but Man/Woman changed that. Now the Veterinary Association has created a ever flowing found of money by castrating/spaying animals on the premise the only way to have a safe and healthy pet population is to do so basically just after they are born. They even force folks to do this, by brainwashing the shelters, humane societies, and rescues, further guaranteeing money. Follow the money trail, and one will see the fallacy; I figured it out when I was about 15, all on my own. Back then, there was no options, until Europe started doing tubal ligations and vasectomies. Now today folks are waking up, and thank the Almighty, even the Veterinary Association has realized the wrong in castrating and spaying before maturity.

I believe in personal liberty, so long as does no harm to others. Meaning, if you are a responsible breeder who can maintain and control your animals, then sure, have them intact. If you aren't going to breed, then prevent unwanted litters. If you can't manage your animals, get them castrated or spayed.

Ember brought home a German Shepard-Coyote mix. Being a mutt and I wasn't going to keep him, had his growth plates checked, and since fused, had him castrated.

All the females I have owned or lived with were spayed. All had innocence. You can do your own research, but it is a fact this is a direct correlation due to hormones regulate the sphincter. Therefore, I will never own another spayed female. I rather deal with six months of trouble a year, rather than 12 months. Thus my comment about tubal ligation/O.S.S..

No bladder infection as drinking normal amount of water and not eating more than normal. My vet said don't come unless at least one of this is abnormal and/or vomiting. He is right in that most over worry and waste hundreds for nothing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

As for mounting, she only allows her current boyfriend to do that; especially Spring and Fall, with an added bonus of sniffing allowed. If any other male even sniffs her, she will snarl and possibly bight. She has gotten into numerous fights over this.
 
#5 ·
Heard it from others, including references, thus why I was believing it.

See how much easier intact females are? You know when they are in and how to respond. ;)
 
#6 ·
I was checking spelling of sphincter and found this: What You Need to Know About Spay Urinary Incontinence in Female Dogs

Ember has had innocence since at least 18 months old, F.Y.I., so the article is already wrong.

But, did see excessive water intake can lead to leaking. Sunday and Monday were so busy with my families goings on (after long road travels), water wasn't feely available as it should have been, and then when available, drank at least two large bowl fulls and laid down. I have seen this before, but never put them together. Now I am realizing Spring and Fall are when the climate changes, which I bet changes water needs, correct?

And for the males, since moister than usual, causes an interest and/or increased smell?

Why the behavior changes?

I do get the "marking" as now the bladder keeps saying full until readjusts.
 
#7 ·
If a dog drinks excessively, then it will urinate excessively. If the dog is making a lot of urine, sometimes the sphincter competence is overcome, and the dog leaks. If a dog has an infection, then any discharge may be attractive to other dogs. All of my female dogs have ultimately been spayed, and not all have been urine leakers. My beagle that I rescued in vet school was spayed at seven and she became a urine leaker.
 
#10 ·
Thank you so very much! :D

Ember's sphincter isn't normal, so seems to me you are saying when the cup is full, it runs out, rather than being poured out? She isn't an excessively peeing dog, if anything she doesn't tell me so holds it until she leaks, then I get it.

Glad you have had better luck, but I hate to risk it, especially since the next one will be a puppy (done with dogs with baggage).

When you say "Innocence", do you mean "Incontinence"?
The title of this thread is "Water Intake Induced Innocenced".

When you say "leaking" and "innocence" do you mean your dog is leaking urine?
aka Urinary Incontinence?

I'm not familiar with all the different spay procedures available, but if there's only a tubal ligation and the ovaries remain, or an ovary sparing procedure, then I agree with Tahnee it makes sense since the ovaries produce hormones, there could still be a heat cycle although without the bleeding or risk or pregnancy.

One of mine pees on the bed when she's in season, it might just be some doggie markiing phenomena and yes, if they drink too much water and don't get out they can have a pee accident.
Thank you so very much for the help! :D

I made the correction, but obviously didn't take. Guess will all the goings on including two 10 page essays/dissertations, guess the brain is a little week. ;) :p:

Is there different types of Incontinence?

Ember pees yellow, but leaks crystal clear fluid that smells different, kind of sweet smelling, thus why I have been confused for all these years. Oh, very fishy a couple times, but when like that, we go in and get U.T.I. medication (another issue intact females have way less). Yes, I am weird, but should have figured that out by now. :p: With Phoebe, it was much more obvious and got in right away, rather than seeing full fledged U.T.I..

There is a reason I changed the title, and was a reflection on the help received. ;)

Ember has never had a pee accident, it just leaks out, sometimes several cup fulls (damaging a real wood floor since happened several times).

When you say "Innocence", do you mean "Incontinence"?
The title of this thread is "Water Intake Induced Innocenced".

When you say "leaking" and "innocence" do you mean your dog is leaking urine?
aka Urinary Incontinence?


Thanks for clearing that up boomers_dawn. This thread was starting to do my head in!
Can you please extrapolate?
 
#8 ·
When you say "Innocence", do you mean "Incontinence"?
The title of this thread is "Water Intake Induced Innocenced".

When you say "leaking" and "innocence" do you mean your dog is leaking urine?
aka Urinary Incontinence?

I'm not familiar with all the different spay procedures available, but if there's only a tubal ligation and the ovaries remain, or an ovary sparing procedure, then I agree with Tahnee it makes sense since the ovaries produce hormones, there could still be a heat cycle although without the bleeding or risk or pregnancy.

One of mine pees on the bed when she's in season, it might just be some doggie markiing phenomena and yes, if they drink too much water and don't get out they can have a pee accident.
 
#9 ·
When you say "Innocence", do you mean "Incontinence"?
The title of this thread is "Water Intake Induced Innocenced".

When you say "leaking" and "innocence" do you mean your dog is leaking urine?
aka Urinary Incontinence?


Thanks for clearing that up boomers_dawn. This thread was starting to do my head in!
 
#11 ·
Urinary Incontinence - Overview

Urethral Sphincter Mechanism Incompetence - WikiVet

These two do a decent job. Notice the Irish Setter is at risk, which means one could also consider the Golden a higher, not high risk to be put in the lists contained, due to genetic linage.

Phoebe was a Border Collie, spayed way too early, and over wight most her life (over 60 pounds until I changed her to quality food plus went for walks and playtime).

In short, yes there is a high risk, but not a definite. Since the Dutch Shepard is medium sized, some increased risk, so think more options should be considered, rather than slamming the door. ;)
 
#12 ·
I'm completely puzzled. Figured you meant incontinent instead of innocent but if the bitch has no uterus, she cannot have a bleeding heat cycle. UTIs smell quite attractive to boys, and other girls too sometimes, but if you are seeing blood it is coming from somewhere in her vagina and that is not normal- I'd be looking for a cancer in there. The uterus is removed in a spay- and the uterus is what is actually bleeding in a heat.
The bladder opens into the vagina in a dog, and the exterior opening is the same for urine or bloody show from being in season The opening into the vagina is about a half finger length in, and if you are seeing blood, I'm thinking that's where it's coming from. Not to dis Banfield, but if they did an exploratory surgery on your bitch and called it a second spay, that's just plain old inaccurate. Even if some ovarian tissue were left behind in the original surgery, she should not bleed if she has no uterus. Unless the blood is coming from her vagina or her bladder- nothing else opens into there and when the uterus is removed (even if she were in heat at the time- makes no difference) where it used to be is sewn up.
 
#16 ·
When did I say there was blood?

If there was, it would have been in my list. There is no swelling either.

Bandfield did it under spay, and charged $300. Said since all abdominal fat was removed, all the parts were removed.

Ok, I wasn't sure if there was some language barrier or what.
This is the definition of "incontinent":
unable to restrain natural discharges or evacuations of urine or feces.

So yes, there are different types of incontinence:
a) urinary incontinence (pee)
b) fecal incontinence (poop)

So whatever the crystal clear fluid is isn't incontinence, it's some kind of drainage. I don't know what it could be. I did have the thought when you said "fishy smell", is it possible it's from her anal glands? I think that is normal and can be easily remedied or prevented with diet.



I don't quite understand this statement:
Ember has never had a pee accident, it just leaks out

So she just leaks all the time and doesn't have control over her pee?
Is that an after effect of the surgeries she had?
That is urinary incontinence.

I would seek the advice of a vet. If you don't have any you trust, I would work on finding one, maybe ask people you know and trust for a good one.

P.S. I see there were more posts before I posted this one and you found an article. Good luck with Ember, hope she's ok <3
Thank you so very much for the help! :D

So then, Ember is semi-incontinent?

Ember holds unless over full, either/and caused by over drinking or waiting too long to go pee.

Well, she has had this drainage for four years, and has had several vets say not to be concerned, the latter because remedied with estrogen.

When a puppy and we were new, she would lie on the floor and get up and clear fluid would rush out, many times as she was laying would run out.

Second spay did nothing. Estrogen didn't until sphincter stimulant, and once on that for a while, estrogen given once as needed clears it all up.

Fluid isn't anal, as done those before. To me, that isn't fishy.

Why isn't the clear fluid not urine like they all say?

Thank you for your concern, I am sure she is fine as this is our normal. :wavey:

Of all the anal gland expressions I've witnessed, it's dark brown and the odor is strong enough to clear a room and cause someone to gag. I doubt it would be a clear discharge.

My first guess is a yeast infection, but in humans that isn't clear either.

If it was my dog, I would have the discharge sampled and tested. My biggest concern is over pyometra if there is any bit of uterus or uterus stump left.
So how would there be anything left if all the fat was removed?

Ember has had U.T.I. several times, medication cleared it up second time, (first might have been innocence). Leakage this time was just a couple small spots on the carpet and bed, and nothing since Tuesday night. I will keep an eye and nose for any changes. Her smell does change with U.T.I.. Right now kind of smells sweet.

I have a friend with a dog with urinary incontinence (spayed bitch syndrome). She has had problems since she was only 2-3 years old. It can be treated with meds (proin).

If you are seeing some blood, I would think that would also be a sign of a UTI.
I would get her into a vet.
As I have been saying, no blood. So then, most likely spayed bitch syndrome, especially since it been going on since at least two.

Yep, I have ample supply of the estrogen, and one capsule now and then works wonders. This threat has gotten a little out of hand, but wow, look at the wealth of information! :D
 
#15 ·
I have a friend with a dog with urinary incontinence (spayed bitch syndrome). She has had problems since she was only 2-3 years old. It can be treated with meds (proin).

If you are seeing some blood, I would think that would also be a sign of a UTI.
I would get her into a vet.
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
Lol the whole "innocence" thing caught me too:)! I was thinking "ummmmm....if she's spayed, she'll keep her 'innocence' forever....isn't that the point? Wonder why her momma is so upset about that?!". But yeah, all makes sense now. Lol crazy spellchecks, eh?
Dancer, double L.O.L.!

My brain of mush now gets it! Duh! :p:

Further, I am a male, last I checked. :p: Is everyone on here female? Or why would you think a male name be a mother?

Spell check only said wrong, but when told to correct, didn't...
 
#21 ·
I 'called' blood because you said she was having mini-heats.
Early on you asked if the presence of a male can cause her to have heat, and no is the answer to that.
I'm glad there is no blood. But I still say vet visit, because if 'cups' of anything is coming out of her, and you are sure it is not urine- and there may be language issues- then something is wrong. You say she is not peeing, but there is enough to ruin the floor, I'd guess that it is urine with that sort of volume. I think you're thinking there's a bladder- and it fills- and her sphincter is not working, so urine spills over like a filled cup or something. Anatomically it doesn't work like that. Bladder is a malleable organ, it fills and empties and in theory, the sphincter holds urine back until the dog is in pee position.
So no blood, she's not having mini-heats and is attractive because of the UTI she almost certainly has. That has no relationship to which dogs are around her, a boy can't bring her in if she has her repro parts or not- oh that it were so- lots of us would love the convenience of that!
 
#26 ·
I second the diabetes test. But a vet visit in general is in order. If you are unhappy with Banfield, try a new vet
Thank y'all for the help! :D

I have a great veterinary practice I go to, owned by the father who despite being at least in his late seventies, still practices along side is forty year plus son. The father is real old fashioned (still uses a lot of those medicines he has used for decades) and showed how the simple things have the most impact. Tests are rarely done, as the medications are less cost. We try, and if it doesn't work, then do something else. Only once in the years I have gone have I had to get a second medication, and that was the stimulant. There practice is very successful, well thought of, and loved by all including the animals (Ember gets bummed when we drive by and don't go in).

Every time I went to Banfield it was at least $300, sometimes up to $2,000. With East Side, I have spent as little as $35 (recheck fee) and no more than $100 (pet end of life).

Next time I am in, will ask about the diabetes.
 
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#24 ·
Oh and if you think it's spayed bitch, with my friends at least, it took a while to find the lowest dosage that controlled the leakage and it is a pill everyday for life. If they miss a pill she has an accident. With her, it most often happens when she is asleep (muscles/sphincter relaxed) and she will empty her entire bladder.
 
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#27 ·
Just a heads up, if it is diabetes and it goes untreated you could be in for a keto acidosis episode which can be deadly and extremely expensive. The longer it goes untreated the more likely it will be a crisis situation.
Why not just bring them at least a urine sample, they can check for both bacteria (UTI) and sugar (diabetes) really quick.
 
#28 ·
There would be other signs and symptoms, correct?
 
#29 ·
I had a cat with diabetes. Her symptoms were drinking a lot and peeing a lot. Many times hunger is also a symptom as well as weight loss. The more time that passes the more symptoms present, so in early stages there may not be many noticeable symptoms.
A urine test is quick, easy, & cheap.
 
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