Training Collar - Prong? - Page 3 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 01:31 PM
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I'm actually going to suggest something completely different. If you have a fenced backyard (a long hallway in your home is an even better place to start), take your dog out back and get rid of the leash. Get some high value treats and get to work teaching her to walk next to you. It's going to force you to figure out real quick how to get your dog to pay attention to *you*. My preference is to teach with no collars and leashes, then move to a collar and leash when we move out of a closed area. The dog is already used to watching and listening, and any physical correction you use will get the dog's attention because you haven't overused it.


Edit: You will have to be very quick to praise/reward the instant your dog is in position, working, and paying attention to you. As Puddles mentioned, get two or three good steps, release, then work your way to more steps/longer distances.
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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 04:38 PM
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People, please remember that the OP is not training your puppy. He/she is training their pup along with all of the quirks it has learned along the way. This dog has some unwanted behaviors that it has already learned that have been allowed to go on and be reinforced. That is not the same thing as starting out with an 8 week old puppy.

This pup is 6+ months old, probably a little better than fifty pounds, is unruly and is rapidly becoming difficult to handle. The pinch collar is very good choice at this time for the owner to get the dog under control and get its attention.

To make progress with the dog the owner will have to.....

1. Stop the undesired learned behavior.
2. Get the dogs full focused attention.
3. Teach the new behavior desired.
4. Reward the desired behavior when it is performed.
5. Repeat the desired behavior and reward until consistency is obtained.

All of the steps have to be completed to make meaningful progress. You can't skip any, or you'll fail and have to start again.

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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 04:45 PM
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Agreed Swampcollie... I didn't think people were under the impression you start with this tool, if they were that wasn't the intent from the beginning. These aren't for training your puppy but for helping correct unwanted learned behavior that needs to be corrected and normal training isn't getting through to them.

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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 04:54 PM
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IF you're interested, and a perfect heel isn't your end goal, just a dog who walks nicely on leash, you might be interested in the upcoming webinar by Denise Fenzi on May 23rd. This is the third time she's having this particular webinar, it has sold out each time before. If you can't be on LIVE, you can still sign up for it and have access to the recording for a year. I've signed up for several of the webinars and was not able to watch and participate live, but love being able to view it at my leisure.

This link lists all her school's upcoming webinars. The one I'm referencing is The Fenzi Method: Cutting Corners for Loose Leash Walking - https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.co...study/webinars
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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampcollie View Post
People, please remember that the OP is not training your puppy. He/she is training their pup along with all of the quirks it has learned along the way. This dog has some unwanted behaviors that it has already learned that have been allowed to go on and be reinforced. That is not the same thing as starting out with an 8 week old puppy.

This pup is 6+ months old, probably a little better than fifty pounds, is unruly and is rapidly becoming difficult to handle. The pinch collar is very good choice at this time for the owner to get the dog under control and get its attention.

To make progress with the dog the owner will have to.....

1. Stop the undesired learned behavior.
2. Get the dogs full focused attention.
3. Teach the new behavior desired.
4. Reward the desired behavior when it is performed.
5. Repeat the desired behavior and reward until consistency is obtained.

All of the steps have to be completed to make meaningful progress. You can't skip any, or you'll fail and have to start again.

I have nothing against prong collars. I have used them and think they are an effective tool. I agree that it needs to be used in training class, to correct unwanted behavior and to keep the dog under control. However, I don't see any reason not to attempt to try an alternative method (in a location with minimal distractions) that teaches the handler to figure out how to get the dog's attention without a the prong collar, as well as get the dog to learn that paying attention can equal reward instead of correction. If both sides of the equation aren't utilized, you either get a dog that never learns the behavior and/or a dog that is always on the prong collar because the handler hasn't learned how not to rely on it. --- That may be what your 1-5 are implying? I was offering a method of teaching the desired behavior. I was not implying that the prong collar is not needed at all.
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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 06:27 PM
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Guess I should have said what I'd do if in the same position - and what I DID do when my pup was 6 months old and SO EXCITED ABOUT EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING in group classes....

I arrived early. I let my dog be excited and social for 30+ minutes before asking anything from him.

I only used a buckle collar. This is because a lot of the thicker muscle did not fill in until my dog was closer to 8 months. It was also because I had a very responsive and soft on the lead dog. <= The training that Usually Lurking describes is what I did to get that. Well that and remember treats are not the only reward for good behavior. A lot of people out there get hung up on giving treats and GOOD LUCK in problem solving if you have a dog like my Bertie or my novice A dog. Novice A dog would not eat anything in public. He would spit everything out. I think nervous stomach. Bertie was not as extreme, but yes - he was not overly food motivated. He still isn't.

In the training ring - I train in conditions where I know he will be successful.

I get that some places might not give you any options, but if you have the ability to steer off as far away from other dogs as possible while working your dog - that's best.

Give your dog a big enough bubble to help them learn to work with distraction. As they are successful, you can move closer to other teams when working.

In the first post - you said the prong was successful and as I said before - if you have a good trainer guiding you and teaching you how to work with your dog and this is a temporary stage and you'll be getting back to using a collar that you can do CGC tests, and whatever beyond in.... go for it.

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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 06:39 PM
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I can't tell you how many dogs I "rehabilitated" at the pet hotel (at owners' request) in just a couple of days with a prong collar. They quickly went from bratty and unruly on leash to calm, pleasant to walk dogs.
People were always thrilled. Prong collars aren't cruel, not walking your dog because you can't control him/ her is cruel.
It's just another training tool, and a very effective one if (big if!) used correctly.
Even had the owners of a particularly obnoxious lab send me flowers a week later!
That said, Tito has never worn a prong collar. He was born an old soul, and never needed one. My other dogs both did.
They got so excited when they heard the jingle of the prong collar coming out of the closet. It meant walkies and fun times were coming up!



CH Rosewood Little Giant VCD3 UDX VER RA TDX MHU SH MXP MJP MFP T2BP DJ VCX WCX CCA CGC FFX-OG (born 3-10-2007), also UCH HR UH UUD AN UJJ URO1 UHIT a.k.a. "Tito" (the Tito Monster)

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Gibson's Golden Girl, CD, CGC, TDI ( 3-20-1997 - 11-22-2013) a.k.a. "Tiny", "Queen B"
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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mp2005 View Post
I have had a great experience with the gentle leader (https://www.petsafe.net/gentleleader). It took a week or two for my dog (6.5 months) to get used to it (lots of pawing at his face, lying down in refusal to walk...), but with consistent use, it has really transformed his walking on a leash! I use treats and such as we walk to reinforce the good behavior and am hoping to wean off the gentle leader at some point. The idea of a prong collar made me a bit uncomfortable, and this has been a great alternative for me.
I find this interesting. The vast majority of people, including the OP, say that their dog has zero negative reaction to the prong collar. They don't mind it at all. Whereas most people who try a head halter like the gentle leader report their dog HATES it at first, is miserable, and has to be conditioned to tolerate it with lots of treats, etc. And yet people continue to feel that the gentle leader is humane and kinder, and the prong collar is less human, more harsh, etc.

I have to wonder why, given it seems very clear that dogs have the opposite opinion. If the dogs like the prong collar more, why do humans think the gentle leader is nicer?
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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by puddles everywhere View Post
Just me but would never put a prong collar on a 6 month old golden puppy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using a prong for training ... large, adult dogs that have had no training yes, puppies? no.

If you start using force to teach now you will need to up the pressure as all you have taught the puppy is to avoid the discomfort. Just me but want my pups to make the choice to do the exercise. .
A prong can be used as communication, not force. It should be loose, and tiny movements used to communicate with the dog. Treats/praise/toy for yes, small amount of pressure on the leash for no.

For whatever reason, the sensation of the prong makes sense to the dog in a way that a regular collar doesn't. Generally they look up at you as if to say, "oh! Don't do that? Why didn't you say so before?!"

So no harsh corrections at this stage, just tiny two finger movements to teach pressure on/off.

As for wanting the puppy to choose...well some choose what you don't want, lol. If the choice is "walk nicely on lead and get treats/praise" or "pull like a maniac and not get treats/toys" some will still choose to pull. Now, changes of direction and other engagement activities help with this, but a prong can speed up the process a bit by providing a "no" to go along with the "yes". And save the dog's trachea in the meantime.
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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktgrok View Post
I find this interesting. The vast majority of people, including the OP, say that their dog has zero negative reaction to the prong collar. They don't mind it at all. Whereas most people who try a head halter like the gentle leader report their dog HATES it at first, is miserable, and has to be conditioned to tolerate it with lots of treats, etc. And yet people continue to feel that the gentle leader is humane and kinder, and the prong collar is less human, more harsh, etc.

I have to wonder why, given it seems very clear that dogs have the opposite opinion. If the dogs like the prong collar more, why do humans think the gentle leader is nicer?
My dog didn't like a regular leash, either, when I first put him on one-- so I didn't read his reaction to the gentle leader as much different. But, interesting to hear these different perspectives.
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