Will GRCA Change Point Schedule for VC/VCX/OD/OS? - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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Will GRCA Change Point Schedule for VC/VCX/OD/OS?

Now that AKC has made a Rally Champion title, will the GRCA revise the point schedule for the VC/VCX/OD/OS etc that includes the Rally Champion and if so, will it be at the same points as OTCH? The GRCA seems to give Rally less prestige than obedience so idk if a Rally Championship would rank as high as an OTCH.

This is the schedule I'm referring to (at the bottom of the page): https://www.grca.org/about-grca/grca...nt-vcx-awards/

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 06:11 PM
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I think it depends on how easy it is to get the rally championship and how many people are getting them.

Right now an OTCH/MACH/CT - that gets more points than a breed CH and even a breed GRCH. And I gather that is based on the ease and frequency that people get these championships.

Rally has been at the bottom because it's very easy to do rally. I literally knew people who never took classes at all. They just read the rules and watched videos and winged it by going from the conformation rings into the rally rings. I don't know if that's still the case right now. I've not done rally classes in years and they've changed things so it is a smidge more difficult with the rally master classes and so on.

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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 06:39 PM
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the point schedule was just changed, it isn't up on the website yet- I will look see if I still have the new schedule. RN has gone away btw.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 06:40 PM
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Points Conformation P erformance Area Field Area
Obedience Agility Tracking
12 FC or AFC
11
OTCH MACH CT ***
10 GCH UDX PACH VST MH
9 CH MX or MXJ or PAX
8 UD MXP or MJP TDX **
7 AX or AXJ SH
6 CDX AXP or AJP
5 OA or OAJ WCX
4 Major points CD OAP or OJP TD or TDU JH
3 NA or NAJ WC
2 Minor points RAE NAP or NJP
1 CCA RA or RE
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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As of 1/31/19 - only 3 people have earned an RACH and it's been out for a year at that point (but points were backdated if I'm reading the news correctly).

To earn an RACH you must:
*Already have the Rally Excellent (RE) title
*Earn 300 championship points
*of which 150 points must come from the Master Class
*and the dog must triple Q (Advance B, Excellent B, and Master) with a 91 or better on the same day and same trial 20 times

Point Schedule:
Score Points
91-94 5
95-96 6
97 7
98 8
99 9
100 10

Theoretically if you ace everything, you can get 300 points in as little as 30 trials however the triple Qs and the at least 15 master classes (150 points from masters) might slow things down a bit. I imagine someone who tries for triple Qs every weekend coule get an RACH in under a year.

The fact that RACH will be non-competitive (meaning you're not depending on placing 1-4 in a trial) means the RACH will be more abundant than the OTCH. But I cannot imagine it would be less than a CD on the point schedule.

Hecate's Hellhound, Gypsy Magic - "Gypsy"
2/15 - Present
Hi-Tide's Danger Scone - "Lana"
6/18 - Present
-----------------------------------------------
Waiting at the bridge:
Hecate's Hellhound, Bearer of Mischief, CGC - "Bear"
8/12 - 7/17
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prism Goldens View Post
Points Conformation P erformance Area Field Area
Obedience Agility Tracking
12 FC or AFC
11
OTCH MACH CT ***
10 GCH UDX PACH VST MH
9 CH MX or MXJ or PAX
8 UD MXP or MJP TDX **
7 AX or AXJ SH
6 CDX AXP or AJP
5 OA or OAJ WCX
4 Major points CD OAP or OJP TD or TDU JH
3 NA or NAJ WC
2 Minor points RAE NAP or NJP
1 CCA RA or RE
Thanks for this. So the RACH isn't up there. I see OTCH (obedience) and PACH (agility) and MACH (agility) and TC (tracking) and FC (field).

Hecate's Hellhound, Gypsy Magic - "Gypsy"
2/15 - Present
Hi-Tide's Danger Scone - "Lana"
6/18 - Present
-----------------------------------------------
Waiting at the bridge:
Hecate's Hellhound, Bearer of Mischief, CGC - "Bear"
8/12 - 7/17
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave View Post

The fact that RACH will be non-competitive (meaning you're not depending on placing 1-4 in a trial) means the RACH will be more abundant than the OTCH. But I cannot imagine it would be less than a CD on the point schedule.
I think the tiny small problem - and again, I have not taken any rally classes in years nor have I watched rally at trials, so I don't know how steep the difficulty jump got after all the changes.

But back when I was dabbling in rally when Bertie was a pup - I saw people repeatedly at all kinds of shows going for their RAE or just competing for fun with dogs who had their RAE. And they had dogs who would not have qualified for a CD leg based on performance. The judging was greatly different and there was a lot more guidance (which would be an NQ in regular obedience) in rally.

Now they did add a lot of difficult elements to rally + cracked down on guidance (I heard anyway) back when they introduced all the changes. So maybe it's way different now....?

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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 08:58 AM
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I'll chime in here since I'm going for a RACH: I absolutely think they should add RM and RACH to the VC/VCX point schedule. Many people that do both Obedience and Rally have the opinion that a Rally Master is at least as difficult as CDX (although there are no retrieves): you have a recall over jump EVERY time, there are go outs, backups, position changes that are essentially the same as command discrimination in Open you are just closer to the dog, etc. AND you have to get 10 legs to title. The judges so far have definitely judged harder in Master than they do the other levels (at least for me), so it isn't easy to get high scores in Master. Additionally, they have added new signs in the last few years to Excellent and Advanced (and maybe Novice too? I can't remember...) that are more difficult than they used to be.

If I had my way, RM would get the same number of points as CDX and RACH would get at least 8 or 9 points on the VC/VCX scale. I don't think it should get the same number of points as OTCH, but then I don't think a MACH should get that many points either considering that it is also non-competitive.

To your point Kate, Rally IS easier than obedience and the judging is absolutely more lax, but being really good at Rally is not easy. It's easy to get the lower titles because scores don't matter, but they do for the RACH. Each thing that would be a 1/2 point off in Obedience is a whole point in Rally. Even though most judges are a little more lax, there are a few that value precision very much and will take off 2-3 points for what I consider 1-point errors.

It's hard to keep a dog engaged when you have to stop and sit 15 times in one course or you have a judge that does not put the proper spacing between signs and you go straight from a finish to left turn to side stepping to a 270 with less than 5 feet between signs and less than 3 feet in a few places... <<<yes that really happened and even the most seasoned dogs bigger than a Sheltie got docked because they could not physically maintain position... And getting those Master points is HARD. Technically if you get perfect scores all the time, you can finish a RACH in 20 trials now that you get points for Advanced too, but it's very rare for that to happen. Rocket and I will max out our Adv/Ex points before we get the 20 Triples, but will have to continue competing in Master to finish the title. I'm hoping we will get enough points by RM3, but you never know...

Anyway, I do hope the GRCA will consider adding RM and RACH to the point schedule because they require a certain level of training and dedication that is beyond that of RAE and the lower levels.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for chiming in! I really appreciate it! I loved Rally with Bear and want to do it with Lana and thought an RACH would be a great goal that for me was more achievable than an OTCH. I haven't done Rally though in like 3 years at this point (between Bear getting sick and then later dying and not having a dog to compete with and now getting Lana up to speed) so I'm most likely out of touch in terms of difficulty. I remember training for Rally was hard (but that was in terms of remembering signs and was 100% a handler thing and not a dog thing). At the time we stopped we were entering Rally Novice shows and training Rally Advanced signs (we had just started jumps when he got sick and we had to pull him from classes to focus on his health)

Hecate's Hellhound, Gypsy Magic - "Gypsy"
2/15 - Present
Hi-Tide's Danger Scone - "Lana"
6/18 - Present
-----------------------------------------------
Waiting at the bridge:
Hecate's Hellhound, Bearer of Mischief, CGC - "Bear"
8/12 - 7/17
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 04:43 PM
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I vote that you get back into it! A RACH is definitely doable with a good foundation and some precision. The worst thing about it is the cost: on the cheap end one triple Q costs $53-$60 (that's my local obedience club) on the more expensive end you are looking at closer to $85 (all-breed show w/conformation). It's probably going to take us 2+ years to finish it because we are taking a good long break from trialing right now to give my checkbook a break and Rocket needs a break too (and to train the new baby). We got 5 QQQ in one weekend and two more the next weekend and he was OVER it by the end of all that. It took us 4 trials to get any Master points. Those signs are not easy to remember and they are easy to get mixed up with Excellent signs. I've cost us more points from IPs than Rocket ever has from being out of position or just being a general turd. LOL He's not quite 4 yet, so honestly I still consider him a "green" dog - he will continue to get better with age. I'm even hopeful that we can go for a CDX someday if I can get him to like the dumbbells.

Anyway, I say get back into it. Train, train, and train some more (as Bridget Carlsen says), study the signs, and most importantly: have fun with your dog! That's what Rally is all about anyway. You'll be fine! :-)

Last edited by ArkansasGold; 06-12-2019 at 04:44 PM. Reason: skipped a word and added a parenthetical phrase
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