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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-22-2015, 11:15 AM
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Hello from France, and help?

You have a nice structured schedule which is good. Your puppy is still quite young. Her jumping up and nipping is her way to engage you and your family in play. The growling with the dead bird is the only thing that could be a concern, as it is a sign of resource guarding. She is still so young that you can nip this in the bud. I think relying on methods such as shaking by the scruff for redirection is probably not the best course of action.

I really encourage you to look into some training classes that use rewards based training methods. Don't make assumptions based on certain people's attitudes towards dogs in France. You still find a lot of backwards thinking people even in the US even though we have so many really great trainers and resources. What I'm trying to say is that there may be wonderful trainers near you. I found a couple of links that lead me to believe the recent clicker training revolution has reached Paris and surrounding areas and you may be able to find a nice class. A good positive based trainer is an invaluable resource.

http://englishdogtrainerinparis.com/
http://blog.smartanimaltraining.com/...ing-countries/

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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-22-2015, 11:16 AM
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It's been quite a while since I read the New Skete book and maybe there's an updated version out, but I remember muzzle grabs, hitting under the muzzle, and scruffing.

If that's still in the book, it's good that you skipped that chapter!

One other thought...instead of crating her when your daughter is crawling, especially if the crate is in another room, you might want to set up an exercise pen in the same room instead that has some good toys and something to nap on. That way she can become accustomed to the baby but everyone stays safe. You also don't want appearance of baby = isolation in crate for your puppy, right?

ETA: Just read your breeder's advice...mon dieux. It makes me wonder if her methods regarding socialization are equally outdated?


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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-22-2015, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Noreaster View Post
It's been quite a while since I read the New Skete book and maybe there's an updated version out, but I remember muzzle grabs, hitting under the muzzle, and scruffing.

If that's still in the book, it's good that you skipped that chapter!

One other thought...instead of crating her when your daughter is crawling, especially if the crate is in another room, you might want to set up an exercise pen in the same room instead that has some good toys and something to nap on. That way she can become accustomed to the baby but everyone stays safe. You also don't want appearance of baby = isolation in crate for your puppy, right?
I don't recall the muzzle grabs, and I think this is an updated version.

The pen is a great idea, and we have started looking for one for exactly that reason. The only problem is that half of our ground floor is being renovated right now, so we're all somewhat cramped. But I agree that I'd rather she have plenty of romping space and not get those negative associations.
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-22-2015, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thorbreafortuna View Post
You have a nice structured schedule which is good. Your puppy is still quite young. Her jumping up and nipping is her way to engage you and you'd family in play. The growling with the dead bird is the only thing that could be a concern, as it is a sign of resource guarding. She is still so young that you can nip this in the bud. I think relying on methods such as shaking by the scruff for redirection is probably not the best course of action.

I really encourage you to look into some training classes that use rewards based training methods. Don't make assumptions based on certain people's attitudes towards dogs in France. You still find a lot of backwards thinking people even in the US even though we have so many really great trainers and resources. What I'm trying to say is that there may be wonderful trainers near you. I found a couple of links that lead me to believe the recent clicker training revolution has reached Paris and surrounding areas and you may be able to find a nice class. A good positive based trainer is an invaluable resource.

English Dog Trainer in Paris | For all your dog needs
Dog training revolution in French speaking countries | Smart Animal Training Systems...

Thanks very much for these links, seems that if I had just used google I would have found them pretty quickly, guess that goes to show that assuming is never a good idea :-)
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-22-2015, 11:51 AM
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Do you have experience with the Ecoanimal people? How did you hear about them?
I know someone who was in a dog trainer program group with him - so he "should" have effective positive reinforcement training based programs and should know someone with a similar style closer to where you live.
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-22-2015, 12:54 PM
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Hey congratulations!! I've just kind of skimmed this thread a bit, but just wanted to make a point regarding puppy kindergarten. Regardless of whether you approve of the training style, it can still be a very good experience purely for the socialization aspect. My first two goldens went to an excellent puppy class where I really agreed with the training style, and we were able to teach them a lot of different skills from the class and pick up on training techniques that we liked and wanted to incorporate, as well as consult with a trainer we respected with regards to various behavioural issues/bratty puppy phases. Our third puppy didn't get to go to this trainer as she'd retired. We found another class and absolutely felt that the instructor was out to lunch. We learned nothing and had a hard time just biting our tongues and letting her theories wash over us. We were disappointed - but our puppy still got to go to a new place, meet new people, and interact with other puppies. As wacky as we felt the instructor's techniques and ideas were, it was still worth going just for that benefit. We weren't under an impetus to utilize her techniques at home, we didn't practise them, and we threw out the book that came with the class- but we took what we needed from it and moved on.

Even though you may not agree with your instructors techniques, it may still be a worthwhile endeavour to expose your little pup to the class setting!
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-22-2015, 01:26 PM
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I was very much like you, I did a ton of research and felt ready. Then my puppy moved in at 9 weeks and I felt panic stricken that I was doing things all wrong.

My Puppy, Comet, also growled if we approached his food, wouldn't drop anything and instead would run in the opposite direction, and he was so sharky that I had to wear rubber boots indoors to save my ankles from his sharp teeth. I was pretty sure I had a resource guarding, aggressive puppy on my hands. Thankfully, people here helped me understand that his behaviors are all normal and that with correctly responding I could work through all of it and get to the other side with a well adjusted, kind adult. We are in the teenage stages, so I'm not quite there yet, but he isn't resource guarding AT ALL, biting WAY less and overall, showing many more signs of the wonderful adult dog to come.

As some have mentioned, I would highly recommend you stay away from anything negatively physical other then redirecting and guiding gently with a leash (and I don't mean yanking or pulling forcefully because you don't want to teach her to pull on a leash). I found that keeping a leach on Comet (indoors) was very helpful in managing problem behaviors like running away with something he shouldn't have or biting my children's feet/legs. It basically gave me extra long arms.

Your puppy is behaving the way she would with her littermates - this is what she has known for 8 weeks. She doesn't understand the rules in her new world and 1 week isn't enough time to catch on. As your wife and other posters write, she's just a baby... She has a lot to learn and she needs your time, patience and gentle guidance (easier said than done sometimes... We all understand how frustrating it can be at times).

There are some great positive reinforcement YouTube videos online.

I posted on the forum what we did for Comet and his puppy food guarding. I'm on my phone and not sure how to find the post and post a link to my comments, but I'll try to find it later and copy it here.

Hang in there. It sounds like you're doing a great job and you're asking all of the right questions, which will definitely get you where you want to be.

And, if it makes you feel any better, Comet is 8 months next week and we are still working on drop it and leave it.


UPDATE:

I found my response post about my puppy guarding his food. I've copied it below. I don't know how to provide a link to that discussion but it's in the Golden Retriever Main Discussion area and it's titled "Growling" and the initial post was posted on 1-20-2015...

You've gotten a lot of solid advice and you have to do what you're most comfortable doing and accept what you're most comfortable living with long term. I agree that if you're seeing signs that worry you now, it's the perfect time to address them and find a great trainer. Puppies have puppy behaviors and a trainer will be able to tell you what you need to work on and what is simply silly puppy stuff. Ten weeks is so young and a puppy is so malleable.

I agree with Dancer that puppy preschool can be a great help. It's also a nice way to see how other puppies are behaving and hear what other families are challenged with. It also provides a nice weekly check in.

We got our puppy at 9 weeks and he was growling at us over his food dish, right out of the gate. I have little ones at home and this really worried me. I absolutely agree that young kids and puppies/dogs shouldn't be left alone. That said, even when you're in the same room, things happen quickly and there could be an issue. So anything you can do to prevent issues now will benefit you in the future. We have rules about the dog and eating, but I also didn't want to stand by and allow this behavior to potentially transcend to toys, objects that he steals, etc.

This is our first puppy and I knew I wasn't equip to handle this on my own. We worked with a trainer and she gave us wonderful, gentle advice for helping our puppy not see us as a threat. As another forum member posted, things like adding food to the bowl helps the dog to see you as a food provider and not a "food stealer." But, depending on how protective your puppy is, you may want to take it very slow. Our trainer first assessed Comet's bubble of protection, she called it. How close could we get before he starts to growl. Then she would have me stop just short of that spot (so that he didn't growl) and offer him a high value treats. After practicing this for some time, his "bubble of protection" got smaller and smaller until I could place the high value treat right into his bowl and he would take it from my hand or the bowl if I dropped it in. We also had my kids go through the same exercises (after I worked with the puppy for quite some time first and they were supervised carefully), so that our little puppy saw them as "high value treat machines" as well. Our trainer also had me feed him one meal per day out of my hand, one kibble at a time so that he would see hands as treat machines and not food takers.

I do understand that all puppies are different and some have this engrained into their temperament more than others, but I would agree that at 10 weeks you still have plenty of time to work through this and potentially work it away. I wouldn't try to do it alone though... bring in a trainer or behaviorist who can help you and guide you through the process correctly. We actively worked on this with my puppy for a good month or two and continue to randomly reinforce it. He's 6 months now and could care less if someone sticks a hand in his bowl. In fact, he's likely to start licking the hand because he's pretty sure there is something really good coming.

Good luck and keep us posted!
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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-22-2015, 04:19 PM
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Hi Phil! and welcome to the forum!

To me everything you wrote sounds like you have a very young, very normal puppy who is going to cause you as much grief as she does joy! I have no advice, but do have a request.... photos!! lots of photos!!

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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-22-2015, 04:22 PM
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BTW we'd love to see a picture of your puppy. we LOVE puppy pictures around here.
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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-24-2015, 08:03 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry for the late reply. Sure, here are a few pics!

Things have been going much better. As most of you said, it was most likely a hard week of getting used to things for her. She seems to be doing much better, AND we've already heard back from two different trainers (English/American-style) and that's looking pretty positive.

She's to the point now that she understands very well what toys are hers and what she can't play with, although there is still a bit of 'I'm going to take this in my mouth and walk quickly to the corner and hope you don't see me' coquettishness, but I guess that's puppyhood.





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