Need help finding Sampson's Littermates/Pedigree - Page 3 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #21 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-24-2017, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Megora View Post
Here's the issue.

Hip dyplasia is genetic across the board. It's why every generation gets their hips (and elbows checked). It's in the breed.

And it is also caused or exasperated by environmental stuff + neutering early.

I removed the rest because it was something of an explosion of astonishment that anyone would sue a breeder to cover hip surgery for moderate hip dysplasia. There's need for common sense. Don't burn your bridges.

^^^^ And might add. I don't know the breeder. Have not gone out of my way to look them up or spend too much energy doing so. LOL. I did think twice about whether or not the breeder actually DID full clearances or not. Or if they were one of those that has it plastered all over their websites that their dogs are genetically free of X or Y stuff because they are special.

I do think that even if you did purchase a puppy whose parents do not have full clearances behind them, it was something you did at your own risk. I don't think you can or "should" sue unless you can prove the breeder was really deliberately breeding dogs who have catastrophic hips and were producing the same.
I get all that and I understand that it runs in the breed. There is way more to this story than I could ever or would ever want to put in print here. I understand and respect your post (I read it before you deleted all of it), but there is more here than meets the eye and a lot transpired regarding this issue. The biggest issue was that the status of the dam's hips were in question, in my mind. as they were not listed on the OFA website and her preliminary status is all that was given to me and I was told that it was "Good" on one occasion and "Fair" on another occasion. When I asked for documentation to confirm her hip status is when cordial communication ceased. I just wanted to know that the breeder didn't knowingly breed a dog with questionable hips.

The law suit came after an orthopedic specialist said that Sampson already had arthritic changes in his hips at 1 year old and he indicated that he would need surgery (he wanted to do it then). I got advice from 2 vets and 3 lawyers before filing. It is not something I took lightly, nor was I being shady or looking to pad my wallet. Try not to judge when you are not privy to the entire situation.
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post #22 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-24-2017, 05:03 PM
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So, at the end of this day, do we know if the dam of Sampson had a hip clearance?
That is an important piece- because even though people believe they can trust breeders who say they have a clearance, we see every day that that statement is often not true.
If you know going in you're a lacking a clearance, that is a risk you took. But if you were lied to that is a totally different thing.We talk till we're blue in the face about why clearances are important- they cut your odds on a condition that is in our breed... yet we get wannabe breeders here who believe breeding their bitch right now on prelims is more important that waiting 6 months and doing things the right way. As long as this continues, and no one posts the 'I bought a pup bred on prelims and am sorry I did' stories, the buyers might find us here a little over the top with our insistence that they need clearances on sire and dam.
I'm sorry of course for Sampson's illnesses and your pocketbook damages in caring for him. I wish the day would come we would not have to worry so much -
did his dam have clearances?
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post #23 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-24-2017, 05:16 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Prism Goldens View Post
So, at the end of this day, do we know if the dam of Sampson had a hip clearance?
That is an important piece- because even though people believe they can trust breeders who say they have a clearance, we see every day that that statement is often not true.
If you know going in you're a lacking a clearance, that is a risk you took. But if you were lied to that is a totally different thing.We talk till we're blue in the face about why clearances are important- they cut your odds on a condition that is in our breed... yet we get wannabe breeders here who believe breeding their bitch right now on prelims is more important that waiting 6 months and doing things the right way. As long as this continues, and no one posts the 'I bought a pup bred on prelims and am sorry I did' stories, the buyers might find us here a little over the top with our insistence that they need clearances on sire and dam.
I'm sorry of course for Sampson's illnesses and your pocketbook damages in caring for him. I wish the day would come we would not have to worry so much -
did his dam have clearances?
The dam, Keiko, was bred by Signature Gold Goldens of Southern Maine. You are right that I took a risk that I shouldn't have taken. Hindsight is 20/20. But, I'm glad that you are one of the few in this thread that GETS the issue. No, I don't believe the dam's hips were cleared. I was told that her preliminary status was "Good" when I bought Sampson. When he started showing signs of problems I asked again and was told that Keiko's hip status was "Fair." When Sampson's preliminary status came back from OFA as Moderate Hip dysplasia, I asked the breeder for a copy of the documentation of Keiko's hip status, but she would not provide it. I searched the OFA website, but her status was never published. The law suit was not so much about money but more to find out if the breeder was breeding a dog with questionable hips. To this day, I do not know the status of Keiko's hips.

I assure you that Sampson is very loved and very well cared for. I would spend my last dollar to make sure he is happy and healthy and enjoying life. I started this thread to see if other dogs from the same parents had similar health issues and to find out what treatments worked best for them so I can help Sampson.
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post #24 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-24-2017, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ljilly28 View Post
My beloved veteran dog Tally is a Casanova grandson, and I had the great pleasure of watching Casanova show at Yankee Golden has a white faced old man. He lived a very long life, and was a dog I just loved with the friendliest temperament . My heart goes out to Sampson, and all goldens struggling with chronic health issues. The thing is, it is human nature to blame breeders , but so much of the time we simply do not know why some dogs( and humans) get sick or thrive. No breeder every wants anything sad or bad to befall the babies they raise with so much hope for their futures. I have made mistakes in selecting pups, and I have to take responsibility for failing in my on due diligence or simply accept that creating living things is perilous sometimes even when intentions are pure. Although I also live in Maine, I have never met Amy at shows or obedience/agility etc so I really don't have any knowledge of the program.
I thank you for your post. Casanova was beautiful and so is Tally!! I remember looking Casanova up when we bought Sampson and admiring his beauty! My concern was regarding the status of the Dam's hips as I never really got a clear answer as to their status at 2 years; only two different answers as to her preliminary status (good and fair). I really wanted to make sure the breeder didn't knowingly breed a dog with questionable hips and I never really got that answer. I was hoping the suit in small claims court would bring about an answer to that question. If I had to judge the breeder on the beauty and temperament of her dogs, she would get high grades. It's just unfortunate that communications broke down when I pressed for documented evidence that the dam had good hips. I should have insisted on that before taking Sampson home. We love him and do our very best for him of course and I would not trade him for anything in the world!
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post #25 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-24-2017, 05:39 PM
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If this is the dam, which by all appearances it is, she never had hip or elbow clearances Pedigree: Gold-Rush Keiko's Golden Rules

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post #26 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-24-2017, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MSmolinsky View Post
The dam, Keiko, was bred by Signature Gold Goldens of Southern Maine. You are right that I took a risk that I shouldn't have taken. Hindsight is 20/20. But, I'm glad that you are one of the few in this thread that GETS the issue. No, I don't believe the dam's hips were cleared. I was told that her preliminary status was "Good" when I bought Sampson. When he started showing signs of problems I asked again and was told that Keiko's hip status was "Fair."
Here's the thing- the risk is one the BREEDER should not have taken. There's never a reason for breeding on prelims. It's banking on something we have no way of knowing the true odds of.

And if breeder is still coming by and reading, I certainly hope a love for the breed will keep you from taking these sorts of risks in the future. There really is no reason to risk the possible pain in future puppies, or the families who have to watch these puppies suffer.
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post #27 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-24-2017, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmolinsky
Try not to judge when you are not privy to the entire situation.
No... actually, you provided more information than I considered. I read your
initial post with the list of health issues and was considering all of those and then saw the post by breeder regarding the lawsuit.

I was flabbergasted at the idea of somebody filing a lawsuit against a breeder and trying to get 2x the cost of the pup back over moderate HD....

It wasn't after I saw your response just now that I went back and saw you had mentioned before that the mom was bred on prelims. Well dang, that's a problem and huge red flag about any breeder. And it completely presents your issues is a completely different light, including explaining why you were immediately freaking out about what all you were getting yourself into, getting the hips checked, etc.

Sorry for jumping to conclusions on this one and obv not reading every post before commenting. I do have some very good excuses for not being completely "with it" today, but I did comment previously...


Last edited by Megora; 07-24-2017 at 07:45 PM.
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post #28 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-25-2017, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lovemydogs4ever2 View Post
Hi Megora
Puppies are not fully grown until they are 2 years old and OFA does not do X-ray ratings until they are fully groan, the owner of Sampson was like I said trying to get a full refund as soon as she took Sampson home but insisted she was going to keep him too. Her dog was not diagnosed with hip dysphasia, when she went to court she told the judge her dog COULD have Hip dysphasia in the future and she had nothing to stand on so it was thrown out of court. As far as any other health issues I have not heard a thing about any health issues with her dog Sampson until it was posted on google this April 2017 & when my vet read it he said she needs to be better informed as to what she is trying to say came from genetics. Everything we feed our dogs directly effect their health, so many people don't understand the impact of their dog food, so this is why we tell people to keep their dogs on a well balanced diet, we also add in our contract that our dogs get fed Bil-Jac which is an amazing dog food. Understandably most new puppy owners do not know this so we do our best to inform them. We also recommend NuVet vitamins for all our puppies and we start them on them at 8 weeks & that gets our puppies ready for their new homes at 10 weeks old. We have not had any complaints or anyone informing us of any heart or other health problems & we have been Breeding for 15 years
@Lovemydogs4ever2 (Amy): Just to be clear (and honest), I never requested a full refund for Sampson, that is untrue. It is also untrue that he hadn't been diagnosed with hip dysplasia when we went to court. I have plenty of documentation from vets and OFA to support his diagnosis. With respect to the case being "thrown out" because I had "nothing to stand on," this is also untrue. The case was dismissed without prejudice (meaning I could sue again in a higher court if I chose to do so, and I would have if not for a family tragedy that occurred around the same time) because my damages were higher than what was allowed in small claims court in Maine. It had nothing to do with lack of evidence since the judge dismissed the case without even hearing the evidence. I have plenty of documentation to discredit you and your statements here so, be careful about threatening me with slander and defamation. I didn't start this discussion to bash you, I was merely looking for Sampson's litter mates to find out if they had any similar issues and what they did to treat them, but, since you have decided to chime in, let's make sure to set the record straight.

Don't worry about hurting my feelings, we are way beyond that. Your opinion doesn't really matter to me. You were uncooperative and unwilling to help during Sampson's first year. Why would I reach out to you for help now? I figured I could get more helpful information here. I asked you for a hard copy of the documentation of Keiko's OFA hip status/clearance after Sampson's diagnosis and you refused to provide it. I searched the OFA database for months and years to follow, but her hip status was never published. Why is that? That raises a HUGE red flag for me. If her hips were good, why wasn't her clearance published (another person on this thread has confirmed that her hips were not cleared)? Did you breed her based on preliminary results without ever re-checking her hips? I'm guessing you won't answer these questions, just as you refused to answer them when I requested this information so many years ago. You kept Koda from Sampson's litter and I believe (based on Facebook posts) that he has also passed. What did he die from? Did he have any of the illnesses that Sampson now has? How were his hips? If you sincerely want to be helpful, give me some of the answers I've been looking for.

I'm truly happy that I have been the only one who has ever come back to you with issues about a puppy's health. I wouldn't wish for anyone to go through all that we have with Sampson. It's really too bad that you were so uncooperative in sharing information and offering any help to us for Sampson (aside from taking him back which I can't imagine anyone doing after loving a dog for the better part of a year). Our experience with you could have been so different had you just been more willing to step up and help rather than becoming defensive and difficult. You had the opportunity to do what was right, but you chose not to and that's really too bad.
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post #29 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-25-2017, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ArchersMom View Post
If this is the dam, which by all appearances it is, she never had hip or elbow clearances Pedigree: Gold-Rush Keiko's Golden Rules
@ArchersMom : YES! That is her. What is the number next to her AKC Registration number (4-08)? Is that the date of her AKC registration? Does that mean that she was not registered prior to that date? Do breeders typically breed dogs that have not been properly registered? I'm just trying to understand any implications here.
Sampson was born in October of 2007 so when would breeding have occurred?
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post #30 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-25-2017, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
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To all that have contributed to this thread: Here is a picture of Sampson in his new buggy. I bought this so he can continue to enjoy "walks." He walks until he's tired or sore and then he rides. He is very loved!
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