Lines with missing teeth - Page 2 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 06:32 AM
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Missing teeth (obvious gaps) are a fault, but not a disqualification <https://www.grca.org/about-the-breed/akc-breed-standard/>. In my opinion, there is not a perfect dog and with all the problems (lack of fronts, short on leg, cancer, etc.) Goldens have, missing a tooth isn't something I worry about. Of course, ideally, full definition is preferred, but I'd consider the overall soundness and strengths of the dog, before I'd throw it out of a breeding program.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 07:31 AM
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I was going to say, there are a LOT of field/hunting bred goldens around here with missing teeth. And it's usually the same ones - on the bottom, on the side of their mouth towards the front (so it's obvious when they are panting after running/working). Its so weird (all 3 of mine have all their teeth, which is probably why I think it's so strange). But Anney is correct in that it doesn't stop them from picking up a bird, so I am assuming it is not something that a lot of people looking at working lines are breeding for....

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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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I checked my field dog and my show dog last night. It appears they both have all their teeth. But I'll confirm on my next vet appointment and if they both do, I'll file OFA results on both. The OFA dentition form says $15. So for historical information for our breed, I'll file it for future knowledge base. Hopefully I'm correct in my count. If not, I'll happily add the lack of a tooth on my k9data information for the dog.

My field dog has a typical field pedigree with all the usual players: Pedigree: Thistle Rock Kicking Up a Fuss RN
My show dog has a typical U.S. show pedigree with all the usual players also: Pedigree: Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RN JH WC

Since they have pretty typical pedigrees, I'll be happy to add that information on dentition. Lack of teeth is an important thing and I would hate to see it become a bigger problem.


~ Stacey with Lucy and Riot, missing Hunter, Reilly, Tiger and Pennie
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 02:53 PM Thread Starter
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I have some information from a good source that it is NOT just field lines, but ALSO show lines have missing teeth. We ALL need to look at any dog as potentially missing teeth.


~ Stacey with Lucy and Riot, missing Hunter, Reilly, Tiger and Pennie
Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RA JH SHU WC "Lucy"
Thistle Rock Kicking Up a Fuss CD RA WCX ** "Riot"
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 04:11 PM
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I know from my days of showing Shelties that ignoring missing teeth can quickly become a real problem its a complex inheritance and the pre curser to missing teeth is wide spaced pre molars and or teeth in general. In general you will start to see missing pre molars first then you start to see real problems I have seen many breeds with as many as 5 missing molars, this makes it harder to chew among other problems I had a dog with missing teeth break her jaw in two the specialist said the missing teeth created weak spots. It is also a problem that sneaks up on lines. You may keep the breed the dog with full dentation that had two sisters that had missing teeth and since it is a complex inheritance have it show up time and time again.

Aussies are really cracking down on teeth as the problem is rapidly growing. I know in the scheme of things it may appear at first minor but it spreads like wildfire and can cause bite issues, pain for the dog in some cases among other issues. I know one dog that has had thousands of dollars dumped into him as the missing molars have caused infections in the gums. And once you have it in your lines it can be almost impossible to get rid of. I know one that is still fighting it showing up even 10 generations later and that is with careful research into even the sibs of the dogs in her lines.

Some dogs have no problems with the missing teeth but some do


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Bridge dogs, Tuffy, Blueboy, Pudge, Shasta, Maddie, Broker, Jet, Baily, Reva, Sparkle and Boots sweet boy we are missing you so.
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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Swampcollie View Post
In my experience, missing teeth (typically a premolar) have been seen in certain lines when the COI is allowed to get too high. Get the COI back down to a reasonable level and the missing teeth problem goes away.

In other words if the COI gets too high, undesired genetic flaws can be expressed. This is true for all lines of Golden Retriever.
The 2 dogs that I can think of that off the top of my head thatI know are missing teeth both have COI's around 6 which is under the breed average. What is a reasonable level that you would see this problem go away. I know few breeders who like to stay under 5.
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2017, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by hollyk View Post
The 2 dogs that I can think of that off the top of my head thatI know are missing teeth both have COI's around 6 which is under the breed average. What is a reasonable level that you would see this problem go away. I know few breeders who like to stay under 5.
But you are missing the point.

COI includes way more than just the simple snipit that you look up on k9data. If you look back in the pedigree you will find some very tight pairings that expressed the fault.

This is why understanding COI is hard for many people to grasp. Simply looking at the number doesn't tell you much, unless you possess a thorough understanding of the lines you're dealing with, and what they do and don't carry.

For some pairings a 12 generation COI of 10 is very high. In another pairing a 12 generation COI of 5 or 6 is too high. You have to know what the dog carries to understand what is too much and what is ok.

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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2017, 04:38 PM
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Swampcollie,
Which is why I didn't really understand your statement that dropping the COI would make the problem of missing teeth go away. Without knowing the lines you could outcross but if you pick another line that throws that same trait you would be still building on it.
The 10 and 12 Gen COI's are useful but I'm finding they are just a small piece of the puzzle. One of my mentors likes to remind me that we are breeding dogs not paper.
Any discussion about breeding choices is always interesting and informative.
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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2017, 07:08 PM
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I dont think COI has much to do with missing teeth. I can think of a few lines frequently missing teeth, though I have never owned a dog without full dentition( yet). Often if a judge in a panel is seriously known as a "tooth fairy" , you will see that 1/4th of the entry skips that day. When 3 teeth are missing, it is more drastic than one for making it a grave flaw. Handlers devise ingenious ways to hide missing teeth, which many judges know well- the game of chess/cat & mouse plays out sometimes. How serious are missing teeth? In a grey area dog with lots of other faults, it might lead do the decision not to show. Plenty of really nice dogs finish missing a tooth though, as most judges consider it a fault but not the worst by far. If I had a wonderful pup lose baby teeth and not emerge with full dentition, I would soulsearch about the dog- not sure what I would then do except weigh it against the overall quality.


I listed my stud dog on OFA for full dentition, and I will with HipHop also, so it is one less thing for bitch owners to worry about. As a bitch owner, I would like that info to mull over, but probably wouldnt rule out over it as my girls have all teeth.

GR-DE297/16M-VPI DENTITION DATABASE Sep 15 2014 Oct 13 2014 16 FULL DENTITION

BISS GCHS CH Tamarack Billions Of Stars Over Poeticgold CD RN TDI CGCA CGCU CGC OS Top 20 2015 (Mystic)
BISS GCH CH RainyDay PoeticGold Secret Society BPIS CGC (HipHop)
GCH AM CH Harborview Sweeter Than 'Shine At PoeticGold CGC (Lush)
AM CH Pebwin Reverie SoothSayer CGC BPIS BPISS ( Sayer)
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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 05-21-2017, 10:26 AM
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I know of specific dogs who were missing multiple teeth, and I am aware of 1 breeder who was radiographing young dogs to see if the adult teeth were coming in before selling them as show prospects (or keeping them for themselves). While it is something that I have not had to deal with, I have not been a big fan of the pedigrees where it was prevalent either. There was one big-winning bitch from years ago, and not much was said publicly about it at the time, I know the owner is very forthcoming about it today if you ask, and she was bred 3 times. I don't know whether or not any of those offspring (esp the CHs) had missing teeth.

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