Linebreed/Inbreed/Outcross - Page 2 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Prism Goldens View Post
I


Type plays into this because if we go too far from type of bitch we may or may not get what we want and if we do, what we got may not be reproduce-able and then we have a generation we're backpedalling to 'fix' type on. Sometimes two or three.
I think one can lose a head in one breeding and it takes at least 3 generations to solidly get that head back if it's a muzzle issue. I think you can fix a shoulder layback in one generation with at least half the puppies. I think eye shape can fix in one breeding, but I think tail set and carriage can be lost in a breeding and that takes forever to fix consistently. Dropped incisors are really hard to fix consistently too, imo.
!
This is the voice of experience, and I am so thankful to read this. In my experience, it is a lot easier to lose the great attributes you have, then keep them and improve if you breed a strong bitch to a quality dog , but of differing styles and pedigrees. I have definitely walked the breed the best to the best and hope for the best road now as a breeder, and not really met my goals. I am not sure that I can pull off bracket breeding, but I am going to try tight line breeding on the bitch side I think trying to keep what's good and improve my head and size.

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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 11:40 AM
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I am not a fan of really high CoIs above 14. Especially when we already have several historical bottle necks and those are starting to drop off the calculation.

Nor am I particularly fond of 0.01 outcrosses.

I certainly want to have show ring success and as an owner handler that is already tough. Sure it would be easier to get that by running by my CoIs up into the 30s. I am just not willing to do that because I want to breed what I am looking for an can't really find a lot of, which is a genetically more diverse dog.

Being in AZ and looking for a stud dog is very limiting. There are literally only a handful here I could even consider using but some are too young and one is already my girl's dad. That means I have to look to CA for a wider selection with in a day's drive. But though there are certainly more dogs, they fall into what I consider 3 families based on the ancestry. Some of which I don't want to use and some of which would be what I have already and drive my CoI higher than I want. I am going to have to figure out with my work schedule to be able to drive 5 days (there and back to the nearest dogs I would lie to use) plus breeding time for my girl who will just not take AI. ☹️ I wish there were more options which is why I got Tizzy.

I am so excited to see what Tizzy can do for the breed if she passes her health certifications. Her pedigree is very unique. She will be an outcross to nearly every dog I could consider in North America. Her pedigree usually yields a 6 or less with European style dogs and under 1 (but not 0.01) for US style dogs. She does actually have US lines through her great grandmother so she has common ancestors to bring forward with stud dogs from both gene pools.

My hope is that she can produce some kids or maybe grandkids that other breeders will be able to take the risk on to use as an outcross.

Consistency in looks beyond meeting the standard is not something I am really all that focused on right now. Hopefully I am young enough that I can spend a decade or so blending lines to create a bank of diverse genes in healthy and sound dogs as an investment in the future with a little success in the showring. Then once I have my base then I can work to set my personal style.


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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 12:41 PM
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I am thankful for this post with all your experience contained within it. For sure it reiterates what I have learned about really achieving excellence that can be sustained over time with a predictable health temperament, and high quality line. The risky part is getting there- discovering gay tails is one thing, but discovering like recessives for epilepsy or something is another. I DO think outcrossing randomly one great dog to a really great bitch more often then not is disappointing and if it is not, it is luck and doesn't reproduce itself reliably. Your post is super helpful to me- thank you
Thank you for your kind words.
I was lucky in that my U.K. Breeder of Bindy had done all the hard work with her in-breeding programme over several generations. She was a gynecologist so had a very good understanding of genetics. I just carried on using her foundations and adding my own interpretation. She was always very supportive. Also bassets, although they do have hereditary problems, do not have so many problems as GRs seem to have unfortunately.
Good luck with what ever you decide to do with your bitch.
I always enjoy your posts and photos.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 01:20 PM
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I'm extremely interested in this topic! However, it's all completely brand new to me and I'm trying to learn about COIs and what they really mean as well as how to interpret them. We just got our very first show puppy this fall and, as long as he passes all of his clearances when he is 2 and does reasonably well in the show ring, he will also, hopefully, sire some litters and I want to be as knowledgable as possible when that time comes. I've been reading and studying so much, but it's like a foreign language to me right now. I'm determined, though, because I want to be the most knowledgeable, responsible breeder (or stud dog owner) that I can possibly be!
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 05:37 PM
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Very interesting thread, thanks for posting it Jill.



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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 11:11 PM
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Thank you for posting this. Trying to learn as much as possible.

My breeder only does an out cross every so many generations. Every time she does an out cross, at least the next one or two generations are line bred. She is in the planning stages of bringing back into her lines, her sires that she has had frozen for a decade or two, they will be used with her current or future bitches, once they have proven themselves with their first litters.

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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 09:25 AM
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Hi! I am not a SUPER experienced breeder, but I do hold some knowledge on line breeding. When talking with a few golden breeders ovrerseas(in the UK and in holland). It was very important for them to go over the pedigree of my girl to make sure we didn't have to much closeness. We had 3 of the same dogs in our pedigrees and it was a no-no with one of them. They both were very against line breeding. I find that the breeders over seas (apart from Ukraine) are very very smart in their breeding programs and I truly trust what they say. With that being said, I would stay away from line breeding.
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