Understanding Pedigrees - Page 8 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #71 of 78 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by KatieBlue'sMidnightSky View Post
Ok, now this makes sense too. So, there are probably a few influential lines in Bella's pedigree (simply using her as an example), and not ALL the kennels are (key word) 'established' lines bred over time in a very planned and executed breeding program. Hmmm....

Could one say that because there are so many other non-established lines, say in Bella's pedigree, that the established lines have been diluted...and possible quite diluted, to the point she doesn't really have any line left? She's a mish-mash versus having any true line? (Please....I hope no one takes offense to this verbiage ~ I just lack knowledge to use any other. I don't want to look like I am picking on my own girl either... I love her to the moon and back, but she is my little 'case study')
I have this problem in considering dogs with whom to breed Lush. Even though there are many lauded dually titled dogs I admire in their own rights, it is too easy to create an unpredictable mishmash by completely outcrossing her into another line(s).

While I don't want to inbreed her bc I worry about about one particular dog in her pedigree( like breed her to her own brother - the most extreme of inbreeding, or back to her own son), it would make for more sense to me to breed her to her own grandfather Hobo bc he is relatively a clean health dog with extraordinary structure and temperament than breed her outcross to a dog I both don't know enough about the pedigree and also has nothing in common with my bitch. Hobo brings usually a lot of energy to pups, so I would know what kind of homes I would neeed- not couch potatoes! I would never dare actually do such a close breeding as Hobo in real life, but master breeders are able to use this as a tool for the good. However, it is not a tool for someone like me who is less experienced, as it could all go so bad so fast.

I could make a different choice and breed her right to her great Grampa Faera's Starlight or to a Star son or grandson, tapping into a whole different line with some huge strengths and some concerns too. My dogs Tally and Copley are Faera line dogs, and I know a whole lot about Star and some specific Star sons - benefits to Lush puppies and risks too. These need to be weighed out, and that is where good judgment and good information is key.


Since the line I love in Lush is the Tuxedo line, that is why I chose Laurell's Goin'Great Guns last time- he touches on it loosely and has everything I wanted structurally and in terms of temperament. That was an easy choice bc there were lots of benefits but fewers risks given her specific pedigree.

I do not really think type to type breedings could work for me and Lush, bc she herself was one outcross from a set line to bring in Hobo.


The temptation of the novice is to see bling ( big titles) and not see the mish mash, so it is useful and educational that you brought up the concept.

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Last edited by Ljilly28; 10-02-2013 at 07:33 AM.
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post #72 of 78 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by sterregold View Post
Quar, Bainin, Whirly, Expo, Jake, Yogi, Sabre are all common in a lot of versatile pedigrees (and mostly connected!) One who I think does not get mentioned as much as some is Strad (Jazzmin Pebwin's Xtravaganz)--he is my Win's grandfather, and also behind most of the Morningstar Goldens. Colabaugh has also produced some very good looking, good working dogs. Buzz is another neat dog (Honeybee's Swarm Warning).
The key is to know what health risks each brings to the table along with strengths so you do not blindly double or triple up on them. I love one of those dogs, but my experienced breeder was able to tell me hey, you would be doubling up on the risk od a particular eye problem for example and for another the risk of high tails (not as big a deal). It is so much more than the dog- a jigsaw puzzle of strengths and risks. I grew up with Quar kids and grandkids, so that is the one dog in the list I know well myself.

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post #73 of 78 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 11:17 AM
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I think it really depends as far as what the bitch will produce and if they type well together. Remi is outcrossed and I bred her to Fisher for an outcross and all my puppies are very similar. There is nothing in Remi's pedigree that I could or want to line breed on. SO, I will be outcrossing her and then going closer for the next generation, if everything turns out.

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post #74 of 78 (permalink) Old 10-02-2013, 08:58 PM
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Not only hard for the puppy producers but for the puppy buyers too. I'm starting to feel the more I know the harder it gets. Temperament, structure, genetics, biddable, drive,....lions, tigers, and bears. Friends keep telling me to keep learning and asking questions and when the right litter comes along I will know it. I hope they're right or Winter is going to be a only dog for a long time.
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post #75 of 78 (permalink) Old 10-10-2013, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by hollyk View Post
Not only hard for the puppy producers but for the puppy buyers too. I'm starting to feel the more I know the harder it gets. Temperament, structure, genetics, biddable, drive,....lions, tigers, and bears. Friends keep telling me to keep learning and asking questions and when the right litter comes along I will know it. I hope they're right or Winter is going to be a only dog for a long time.
I think it is true the more you know the harder it is! There is also a quotient of mystery in a breeding no matter how careful, and the simple fact that dogs are living beings and even that goldens have many health risks. Even in a gorgeous well-thought out breeding, maybe there are no show pups or maybe the fire is there on paper but no FCs.

I had a golden who should not have had severe ED. Her parents, grandparents, and greats had nice clearances, but several descending in her litter and her cousins and nephews etc had it, and her mom was eventually spayed. Frustrating for everyone- as truly all was contientious and careful, but they still had it.

On the flipside, people argue on behalf of backyard breeders bc by the coin toss they have a healthy dog- just lucked out and then they generalize that.


In response though to the above post that the more we know the harder it can be to pull the trigger and choose a pup or stud dog, I think it helps to make peace with the idea there is going to be risk, but usually if a dog doesnt pass a clearance or has an issue, it isnt life threatening( it can be) and a new normal comes, maybe with reigned in hopes for the dog, but still a loved and loving life.

My golden Finn had prelims Hips excellent elbows normal, eyes and heart both clear. His mom lived to be 15 and his dad started his Master Hunter title at age 9 and finished at age 10. Finn has idiopathic epilepsy, and his great, great,great grandfather had it too severely. When Finn was diagnosed, it was like the world was ending I was so panicked. Over time though, it normalized, we learned to deal very nicely with it, and Finn is doing amazing as an active happy veteran. I would rather have Finn with his epilepsy, than another dog without it. Finn didnt win in the genetic roulette, but the great majority of the dogs in his "line" are healthy and longlived, so I made peace that everyone did their bests, but Finn still has this problem that represents the vast minority and a kind of unlikely wildcard. He still the bestest dog.

BISS GCHS CH Tamarack Billions Of Stars Over Poeticgold CD RN TDI CGCA CGCU CGC OS Top 20 2015 (Mystic)
BISS GCH CH RainyDay PoeticGold Secret Society BPIS CGC (HipHop)
GCH AM CH Harborview Sweeter Than 'Shine At PoeticGold CGC (Lush)
AM CH Pebwin Reverie SoothSayer CGC BPIS BPISS ( Sayer)
Goldiva Raleigh Tangled Up In Blue CD RAE TDI TT CGCA
PoeticGold Golden Pond How To Save A Life CGC AM CH Pointed ( Dreamer)
PoeticGold's Port In The Storm (just born)

Last edited by Ljilly28; 10-10-2013 at 08:36 AM. Reason: spelling boo boos
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post #76 of 78 (permalink) Old 10-12-2013, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ljilly28 View Post
The key is to know what health risks each brings to the table along with strengths so you do not blindly double or triple up on them. I love one of those dogs, but my experienced breeder was able to tell me hey, you would be doubling up on the risk od a particular eye problem for example and for another the risk of high tails (not as big a deal). It is so much more than the dog- a jigsaw puzzle of strengths and risks. I grew up with Quar kids and grandkids, so that is the one dog in the list I know well myself.
Yes it always a balancing act. If the eye issue dog is the same one as I am thinking, it is something I have had to deal with as that dog is grandsire to one of my dogs. And with another of those versatile producers I have in my lines allergies can be an issue if you get too tight on him. I did a breeding to add an injection of water courage an oomph for field work, knowing that there are bite issues with one of the dogs in the sire's pedigree--so to build on that breeding, I now have to watch for that dog in breeding the offspring. It is always that risk-reward scenario. I at this point am just thankful that the core of my breeding program does not have PU connections as I have several friends who have had their programs now wiped out, and are having to start over, and are just shaking their heads watching other people continue to linebreed on the same stuff even knowing what has happened. That takes some wilful ignorance.

Shelly
"Breeze" HR Trowsnest Sterre Autumn Breeze Can. SH WCX, Am. MH CCA
"Winter" Can/UKC Ch. Amberwood Winter Wonderland Can. SH WCX CD VCI, Am. SH CD WCX CCA VC, 2007 GRCC Nan Gordon Trophy
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post #77 of 78 (permalink) Old 10-17-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ljilly28 View Post
I think it is true the more you know the harder it is! There is also a quotient of mystery in a breeding no matter how careful, and the simple fact that dogs are living beings and even that goldens have many health risks. Even in a gorgeous well-thought out breeding, maybe there are no show pups or maybe the fire is there on paper but no FCs.

I had a golden who should not have had severe ED. Her parents, grandparents, and greats had nice clearances, but several descending in her litter and her cousins and nephews etc had it, and her mom was eventually spayed. Frustrating for everyone- as truly all was contientious and careful, but they still had it.

On the flipside, people argue on behalf of backyard breeders bc by the coin toss they have a healthy dog- just lucked out and then they generalize that.


In response though to the above post that the more we know the harder it can be to pull the trigger and choose a pup or stud dog, I think it helps to make peace with the idea there is going to be risk, but usually if a dog doesnt pass a clearance or has an issue, it isnt life threatening( it can be) and a new normal comes, maybe with reigned in hopes for the dog, but still a loved and loving life.

My golden Finn had prelims Hips excellent elbows normal, eyes and heart both clear. His mom lived to be 15 and his dad started his Master Hunter title at age 9 and finished at age 10. Finn has idiopathic epilepsy, and his great, great,great grandfather had it too severely. When Finn was diagnosed, it was like the world was ending I was so panicked. Over time though, it normalized, we learned to deal very nicely with it, and Finn is doing amazing as an active happy veteran. I would rather have Finn with his epilepsy, than another dog without it. Finn didnt win in the genetic roulette, but the great majority of the dogs in his "line" are healthy and longlived, so I made peace that everyone did their bests, but Finn still has this problem that represents the vast minority and a kind of unlikely wildcard. He still the bestest dog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sterregold View Post
Yes it always a balancing act. If the eye issue dog is the same one as I am thinking, it is something I have had to deal with as that dog is grandsire to one of my dogs. And with another of those versatile producers I have in my lines allergies can be an issue if you get too tight on him. I did a breeding to add an injection of water courage an oomph for field work, knowing that there are bite issues with one of the dogs in the sire's pedigree--so to build on that breeding, I now have to watch for that dog in breeding the offspring. It is always that risk-reward scenario. I at this point am just thankful that the core of my breeding program does not have PU connections as I have several friends who have had their programs now wiped out, and are having to start over, and are just shaking their heads watching other people continue to linebreed on the same stuff even knowing what has happened. That takes some wilful ignorance.

I'm trying to learn as much as I can. However, it does come down to finding a breeder (or two) who is breeding the kind Golden I want, with a program that makes sense to me. I think my worrying right now is part of my process in figuring out just what it is I'm looking for and who has it. Once puppy comes home they're here to stay whether we play the dog games or not.
A favorite pastime right now is window shopping litter announcements. I try and figure out what they are going for with the breeding, straight up line breeding, trying to bring a dog farther back forward, upping the performance, if not line is it type to type. I love when the breeder does a little write up about what they are hoping to produce, sometimes I try to read between the lines. I also like it when they show pictures of the dogs wet. I feel I can get a better look at them.

Another thing I think about is where I would be considered on the litter as opposed to other people getting a puppy. I don't want to pick my puppy, but I do want that MH. If there are a lot of experienced people waiting for puppies too would I get the one that would be a good match for me? Is this a crazy concern?
Can I ask a breeder where I'm on the litter, would they tell me if they didn't think any of the puppies would work for me once they had been evaluated, could I walk away from a puppy on the ground? Too much time on my hands I better go train the dog at me feet.

Last edited by hollyk; 10-17-2013 at 11:17 AM.
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post #78 of 78 (permalink) Old 10-19-2013, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hollyk View Post
I'm trying to learn as much as I can. However, it does come down to finding a breeder (or two) who is breeding the kind Golden I want, with a program that makes sense to me. I think my worrying right now is part of my process in figuring out just what it is I'm looking for and who has it. Once puppy comes home they're here to stay whether we play the dog games or not.
A favorite pastime right now is window shopping litter announcements. I try and figure out what they are going for with the breeding, straight up line breeding, trying to bring a dog farther back forward, upping the performance, if not line is it type to type. I love when the breeder does a little write up about what they are hoping to produce, sometimes I try to read between the lines. I also like it when they show pictures of the dogs wet. I feel I can get a better look at them.

Another thing I think about is where I would be considered on the litter as opposed to other people getting a puppy. I don't want to pick my puppy, but I do want that MH. If there are a lot of experienced people waiting for puppies too would I get the one that would be a good match for me? Is this a crazy concern?
Can I ask a breeder where I'm on the litter, would they tell me if they didn't think any of the puppies would work for me once they had been evaluated, could I walk away from a puppy on the ground? Too much time on my hands I better go train the dog at me feet.
That is key in looking for the sort of dog you want--patience and waiting for the right litter! I too often see people jump at a litter that is ready now because they just do not want to wait, and they end up compromising key things they wanted. I think the breeders producing the kind of dog you are after look to have a variety of homes lined up as there tends to be some range of personalities, and that is why the questionnaires tend to be so detailed, and their litter evaluation processes more in depth as well.

Shelly
"Breeze" HR Trowsnest Sterre Autumn Breeze Can. SH WCX, Am. MH CCA
"Winter" Can/UKC Ch. Amberwood Winter Wonderland Can. SH WCX CD VCI, Am. SH CD WCX CCA VC, 2007 GRCC Nan Gordon Trophy
"Butch" Sterre Badlands Outlaw JH WC I(Ch ptd)/Am JH 2013 Nan Gordon Trophy
"Bonnie" Sterre Texas Bluebonnet JH WCI, Am JH
"Wings" Sterre Widgeon on the Wing
"Chrissy" Halfmoon Embellishment (Cavalier)
"Juniper" Amberwood Northern Exposure CD RNCL (Apr15/02-Feb12/13)
http://www.sterregold.net
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