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post #11 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 06:22 PM
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Thank you so much for the post. Too be honest I did not know anything about k9 data etc. when I went looking for a puppy. I got VERY lucky and was steered in the right direction. Now I can look at Wnnies pedigree and make some sense of it..


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post #12 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 06:37 PM
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I think our breed is very lucky to have www.k9data.com Without it we wouldn't be able to have a great conversation on this issue. I thank everyone that has taken the time to enter all this information and photographs into the database over the years. For a database that didn't exist before the internet, it's amazing to me how far it has come to record everything it holds.

I have a trainer that won't look at a golden for training until she sees the pedigree on k9data. It helps her know the dog's "type" before the dog walks in the door. It's just such a helpful database on so many different levels.


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post #13 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 08:13 PM
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Sterregold:

Thanks for posting that last article--an excellent read.

Couple of questions about % blood--

As I understand it, values are assigned for each relationship, ie 25% for grandparent, 12.5% for great grand, then 6.25% and so on and so forth. Are the totals strictly cumulative? What if the ancestor in question is in both sire and dam's lines? Would it still be cumulative?

Also, typically how far back do you read a pedigree when planning a breeding? Back to the foundation dogs? In the example he gives in the article he takes it back 27 gens.

Lastly, I would imagine there is still a quotient of uncertainty in the results. With your years of experience coupled with pedigree analysis, how certain are you of your results with a new, unique breeding?

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post #14 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-03-2013, 08:58 PM
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I will say I remember your dog's great-great-etc grandma CH Asterling's Leaps N Bounds "Morgan." I had just joined MFGRC and can remember taking my puppy to a match. Robin Donahey at the time lived in my area and was always very nice, she went to the same obedience class I did. Anyways "Morgan" was a pretty young puppy at the match and was really really gorgeous. I will always remember that dog. She was very heavily inbred (James bred to his mother) but lived to a ripe old age.

"Knowing your pedigree" ---- wow that is hard, and you won't ever really know everything unless you've owned the dam's side for generations. I am fortunate to know all of Fisher's siblings and many of their offspring, and of course his sire very well, his uncle, a few others. Beyond that I don't know any more than the average person.

When I got my first golden I constructed this huge pedigree for him, based on books and GRNews magazines, this was waaaaaaay before K9data. I got it out to about 10 generations with very few holes. He was all just asterling on one side and Gold Rush on the other, of course, so easy to track. Now all of those same dogs are in everyone's pedigrees except so far back they're off the 5 gen pedigree page on k9data.

The only thing that I have reservations on "knowing" all this stuff -- how much influence does a dog 5 generations back have? Probably very little. I think you may gain more knowledge of what your dog likely will be or will produce by looking at MANY dogs in CLOSER generations. That is a lot easier to research anyhow. How many grandparents, great-aunts/uncles, cousins, aunts & uncles, siblings, half siblings, etc can you know? What are their unusual characteristics?

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"Fisher" CH Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UDT VER RAE MH WCX CCA VCX OS DDHF, Can. CD WC
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post #15 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-04-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by drofen View Post
Sterregold:

Thanks for posting that last article--an excellent read.

Couple of questions about % blood--

As I understand it, values are assigned for each relationship, ie 25% for grandparent, 12.5% for great grand, then 6.25% and so on and so forth. Are the totals strictly cumulative? What if the ancestor in question is in both sire and dam's lines? Would it still be cumulative?

Also, typically how far back do you read a pedigree when planning a breeding? Back to the foundation dogs? In the example he gives in the article he takes it back 27 gens.

Lastly, I would imagine there is still a quotient of uncertainty in the results. With your years of experience coupled with pedigree analysis, how certain are you of your results with a new, unique breeding?
It is very complex, and there is an element of uncertainty. The tighter you breed, the higher the predictability. Homozygosity in the genetic coding means that there are more repeated genes which increases the likelihood of a trait being expressed (for good or ill). In Clumbers which are a breed with a smaller population, and a smaller gene pool, you will see more repetition of dogs, and therefore a higher degree of influence. In Goldens there are some very tightly linebred dogs still. When you go back into the history of the breed a bit there were some influential kennels where very intense linebreeding was practised, like Stenbury. They had a very recognizable outline. [The prefix is now used by someone else, who took over the breeding program after Ms. Minter's death in 1995--so look at pre-1995 dogs, and especially her dogs from the 40's to 60's to see how she built her line.]

It does accumulate when ancestors are repeated. So if a bitch is the grandmother and the great-grandmother there will be a higher contribution. COI does not tell all--influence tables go further into the degree of influence a particular dog has in the pedigree. So when I see a dog repeated over and over again, especially up to the fifth generation, that is a dog I want to investigate. That dog or bitch is having a greater influence because of their concentration in the genetic material. Remember though that each pup in a litter gets half its DNA from each parent--but not necessarily the same half. So that is why you can have variation in a litter, especially if it is more of an outcross. There are a couple of very influential dogs in show lines who are the results of breedings of litter sisters to litter brothers. Despite being double first cousins, they each set a very distinctive style when linebred on, and are associated with different health issues.

You can also get interesting outcomes in litters where there is some loose linebreeding. This is my litter from last spring Pedigree: Sterre Widgeon on The Wing
Each of the parents is the result of a breeding of an English/European pedigree sire, to a bitch from Trowsnest/Celestial lines. In common, they both brought Celestial Sirius Jake along. It has a fairly low COI, and I was actually doing the breeding to set something else up in the next generation, where there is a dog I like, but it did not make sense to take my current girls to him, but it does with Wings. Some of the pups take very much after the Jake part of the pedigree, some show elements of both, and others look super "English" and very much reflect the Camrose that is behind all of that part of the pedigree. The girl I kept, Wings, who is more on the Jake side of things, shows a gene expression that reflects the part of the pedigree I was breeding for in that combination (she is very like her paternal grandmother). Taking her to a male that represents that part of the pedigree down the road will more more likely (not a guarantee) produce similarity there, whereas it would be less likely with her sister who looks very English. The genes being expressed are at least in part an indication of what side of the parents pedigrees their particular gene combination came through. It is more complicated with recessive traits though, because those will not be expressed unless a gene is inherited from both parents--that is often where the interesting little surprises pop up--like a blue-eyed child in a family of brown-eyed siblings from two brown-eyed parents. Brown eyes are dominant in people, so the recessive blue eye gene could be hitching along for some time until the right combination is made and a child gets the blue gene from both parents.

Shelly
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"Winter" Can/UKC Ch. Amberwood Winter Wonderland Can. SH WCX CD VCI, Am. SH CD WCX CCA VC, 2007 GRCC Nan Gordon Trophy
"Butch" Sterre Badlands Outlaw JH WC I(Ch ptd)/Am JH 2013 Nan Gordon Trophy
"Bonnie" Sterre Texas Bluebonnet JH WCI, Am JH
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post #16 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-04-2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by K9-Design View Post

The only thing that I have reservations on "knowing" all this stuff -- how much influence does a dog 5 generations back have? Probably very little. I think you may gain more knowledge of what your dog likely will be or will produce by looking at MANY dogs in CLOSER generations. That is a lot easier to research anyhow. How many grandparents, great-aunts/uncles, cousins, aunts & uncles, siblings, half siblings, etc can you know? What are their unusual characteristics?
I agree, although in reviewing genetic influence tables you realize how much a dog that is many generations back can influence a pedigree. For example, in my Kira's pedigree there is a dog who doesn't appear until the 8th generation whose genetic influence is just slighly lower than her grand-sires and grand-dams. It can be a good thing if you like the dog and what the dog produced, or a bad thing if there are characteristics you want to avoid. All of it will be considered if she is ever bred down the road, obviously, but it's really eye opening to see the genetic influence tables.

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post #17 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-04-2013, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by sterregold View Post
It is very complex, and there is an element of uncertainty. The tighter you breed, the higher the predictability. Homozygosity in the genetic coding means that there are more repeated genes which increases the likelihood of a trait being expressed (for good or ill). In Clumbers which are a breed with a smaller population, and a smaller gene pool, you will see more repetition of dogs, and therefore a higher degree of influence. In Goldens there are some very tightly linebred dogs still. When you go back into the history of the breed a bit there were some influential kennels where very intense linebreeding was practised, like Stenbury. They had a very recognizable outline. [The prefix is now used by someone else, who took over the breeding program after Ms. Minter's death in 1995--so look at pre-1995 dogs, and especially her dogs from the 40's to 60's to see how she built her line.]

It does accumulate when ancestors are repeated. So if a bitch is the grandmother and the great-grandmother there will be a higher contribution. COI does not tell all--influence tables go further into the degree of influence a particular dog has in the pedigree. So when I see a dog repeated over and over again, especially up to the fifth generation, that is a dog I want to investigate. That dog or bitch is having a greater influence because of their concentration in the genetic material. Remember though that each pup in a litter gets half its DNA from each parent--but not necessarily the same half. So that is why you can have variation in a litter, especially if it is more of an outcross. There are a couple of very influential dogs in show lines who are the results of breedings of litter sisters to litter brothers. Despite being double first cousins, they each set a very distinctive style when linebred on, and are associated with different health issues.

You can also get interesting outcomes in litters where there is some loose linebreeding. This is my litter from last spring Pedigree: Sterre Widgeon on The Wing
Each of the parents is the result of a breeding of an English/European pedigree sire, to a bitch from Trowsnest/Celestial lines. In common, they both brought Celestial Sirius Jake along. It has a fairly low COI, and I was actually doing the breeding to set something else up in the next generation, where there is a dog I like, but it did not make sense to take my current girls to him, but it does with Wings. Some of the pups take very much after the Jake part of the pedigree, some show elements of both, and others look super "English" and very much reflect the Camrose that is behind all of that part of the pedigree. The girl I kept, Wings, who is more on the Jake side of things, shows a gene expression that reflects the part of the pedigree I was breeding for in that combination (she is very like her paternal grandmother). Taking her to a male that represents that part of the pedigree down the road will more more likely (not a guarantee) produce similarity there, whereas it would be less likely with her sister who looks very English. The genes being expressed are at least in part an indication of what side of the parents pedigrees their particular gene combination came through. It is more complicated with recessive traits though, because those will not be expressed unless a gene is inherited from both parents--that is often where the interesting little surprises pop up--like a blue-eyed child in a family of brown-eyed siblings from two brown-eyed parents. Brown eyes are dominant in people, so the recessive blue eye gene could be hitching along for some time until the right combination is made and a child gets the blue gene from both parents.
So looking over the pedigree you posted, Celestial Sirius Jake and Trowsnest Wind B'Neath My Wings are both on both sides of the pedigree. They are also both within one generation of each other, with Wind B'Neath My Wings siring the bitch that Sirius Jake is then bred with. Would there have been something that both breeders saw there--an attempt to combine characteristics of Jake and WBMW?

Wow, and then if you look back at both of those breedings, Trowsnest Whirlwind is all over the place on both sides. I take it he was/is an influential dog?

Robert & Goldenwind's Five O'Clock Somewhere (Maxwell the Great) 1/5/2013

The Curious Happenstance of Maxwell the Great (a Golden blog)
http://pdgf.pitapata.com/wHwBm5.png
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post #18 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-04-2013, 02:00 PM
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So looking over the pedigree you posted, Celestial Sirius Jake and Trowsnest Wind B'Neath My Wings are both on both sides of the pedigree. They are also both within one generation of each other, with Wind B'Neath My Wings siring the bitch that Sirius Jake is then bred with. Would there have been something that both breeders saw there--an attempt to combine characteristics of Jake and WBMW?

Wow, and then if you look back at both of those breedings, Trowsnest Whirlwind is all over the place on both sides. I take it he was/is an influential dog?
Yes, and Whirly would be the dog both of those breedings were bringing forward. Jake was himself an outcross, but in each of those breedings, the part that was shared between him and the bitch he was bred to is the common Whirly ancestry. Whirly was a very influential dog who is behind many of the versatile pedigrees now. And himself was a breeding that seemed to be an outcross as his dam was a beautiful show/obedience bitch, and his sire a field trial dog (who just needed a win for his title). But they actually shared Yeo and High Farms lines which is what made the breeding nick.

Shelly
"Breeze" HR Trowsnest Sterre Autumn Breeze Can. SH WCX, Am. MH CCA
"Winter" Can/UKC Ch. Amberwood Winter Wonderland Can. SH WCX CD VCI, Am. SH CD WCX CCA VC, 2007 GRCC Nan Gordon Trophy
"Butch" Sterre Badlands Outlaw JH WC I(Ch ptd)/Am JH 2013 Nan Gordon Trophy
"Bonnie" Sterre Texas Bluebonnet JH WCI, Am JH
"Wings" Sterre Widgeon on the Wing
"Chrissy" Halfmoon Embellishment (Cavalier)
"Juniper" Amberwood Northern Exposure CD RNCL (Apr15/02-Feb12/13)
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post #19 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-04-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sterregold View Post
It is very complex, and there is an element of uncertainty. The tighter you breed, the higher the predictability. Homozygosity in the genetic coding means that there are more repeated genes which increases the likelihood of a trait being expressed (for good or ill). In Clumbers which are a breed with a smaller population, and a smaller gene pool, you will see more repetition of dogs, and therefore a higher degree of influence. In Goldens there are some very tightly linebred dogs still. When you go back into the history of the breed a bit there were some influential kennels where very intense linebreeding was practised, like Stenbury. They had a very recognizable outline. [The prefix is now used by someone else, who took over the breeding program after Ms. Minter's death in 1995--so look at pre-1995 dogs, and especially her dogs from the 40's to 60's to see how she built her line.]

It does accumulate when ancestors are repeated. So if a bitch is the grandmother and the great-grandmother there will be a higher contribution. COI does not tell all--influence tables go further into the degree of influence a particular dog has in the pedigree. So when I see a dog repeated over and over again, especially up to the fifth generation, that is a dog I want to investigate. That dog or bitch is having a greater influence because of their concentration in the genetic material. Remember though that each pup in a litter gets half its DNA from each parent--but not necessarily the same half. So that is why you can have variation in a litter, especially if it is more of an outcross. There are a couple of very influential dogs in show lines who are the results of breedings of litter sisters to litter brothers. Despite being double first cousins, they each set a very distinctive style when linebred on, and are associated with different health issues.

You can also get interesting outcomes in litters where there is some loose linebreeding. This is my litter from last spring Pedigree: Sterre Widgeon on The Wing
Each of the parents is the result of a breeding of an English/European pedigree sire, to a bitch from Trowsnest/Celestial lines. In common, they both brought Celestial Sirius Jake along. It has a fairly low COI, and I was actually doing the breeding to set something else up in the next generation, where there is a dog I like, but it did not make sense to take my current girls to him, but it does with Wings. Some of the pups take very much after the Jake part of the pedigree, some show elements of both, and others look super "English" and very much reflect the Camrose that is behind all of that part of the pedigree. The girl I kept, Wings, who is more on the Jake side of things, shows a gene expression that reflects the part of the pedigree I was breeding for in that combination (she is very like her paternal grandmother). Taking her to a male that represents that part of the pedigree down the road will more more likely (not a guarantee) produce similarity there, whereas it would be less likely with her sister who looks very English. The genes being expressed are at least in part an indication of what side of the parents pedigrees their particular gene combination came through. It is more complicated with recessive traits though, because those will not be expressed unless a gene is inherited from both parents--that is often where the interesting little surprises pop up--like a blue-eyed child in a family of brown-eyed siblings from two brown-eyed parents. Brown eyes are dominant in people, so the recessive blue eye gene could be hitching along for some time until the right combination is made and a child gets the blue gene from both parents.
Thanks Shelly, it is always enlighting to me when you start talking pedigrees.

Another dog I see in both sides of your Wings pedigree is Pedigree: Am. CH Elysian Sky Hi Dubl Exposure UDT MH ** WCX VCX DDHF OS.
I often see this dog when I'm researching versatile pedigrees.
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post #20 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-04-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sterregold View Post
Yes, and Whirly would be the dog both of those breedings were bringing forward. Jake was himself an outcross, but in each of those breedings, the part that was shared between him and the bitch he was bred to is the common Whirly ancestry. Whirly was a very influential dog who is behind many of the versatile pedigrees now. And himself was a breeding that seemed to be an outcross as his dam was a beautiful show/obedience bitch, and his sire a field trial dog (who just needed a win for his title). But they actually shared Yeo and High Farms lines which is what made the breeding nick.
Excellent, you made my day! I love learning new stuff, and then trying to apply it.

So to properly evaluate a pedigree, you not only have to understand genetics, but also have a background knowledge of who the animals are and what phenotypical and genotypical traits they have available as a "genetic resource".

Robert & Goldenwind's Five O'Clock Somewhere (Maxwell the Great) 1/5/2013

The Curious Happenstance of Maxwell the Great (a Golden blog)
http://pdgf.pitapata.com/wHwBm5.png
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