Treading Water and "Peeking" on blind retrieves - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-01-2019, 01:36 PM Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Ester, AK
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Treading Water and "Peeking" on blind retrieves

Treading water is an important skill for water blind retrieves.
I think the ability to stop a retriever and have it tread water
and wait for your cast is important for at least 2 reasons:
1) Your control is enhanced if the retriever must wait and focus
on you as the handler.
2) The retriever is more likely to "change his mind" and
take your cast if he has to wait for your cast.

How do you teach your retriever to tread water for a long time?

On land, sometimes a retriever ends up behind a bush so he can not see the handler.
This is common in AKC land blinds where the blind corridor is a series of "keyhole" shrubs.
Some retrievers are smart and "peek" so they can see the handler.

How do you teach a retriever to "peek" if he ends up out of sight while running a land blind?
DaveVerbyla is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to DaveVerbyla For This Useful Post:
Alaska7133 (11-05-2019)
post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-01-2019, 02:30 PM
SRW
Member
 
SRW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Thanks: 6
Thanked 48 Times in 16 Posts
I think both are skills a dog learns on its own through experience and repetition. Treading water should be learned during swim by. Lots of double T leading up to swim by will make it a known concept, we are just sitting in water now. If a dog swims slowly toward the handler instead of treading water in place its not a big deal.


Peeking, finding the handler will come naturally to a dog that is comfortable with blinds. Use the minimal pressure on blinds and handling drills. A dog needs to trust that the handler will guide him to the bird. It takes a great deal of time and repetition to build the confidence and trust a dog needs to handle well on cold blinds that may be a few hundred yards. It is very important to remember and recognize the difference between mistakes and disobedience. If a young dog takes the wrong cast stop and recast, wrong again move closer and cast again until he gets it correct. At first it is much more important for a dog to stop on the whistle and take each cast with enthusiasm than with precision. A dog that is excited about taking the next cast will naturally try to find the handler.
SRW is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to SRW For This Useful Post:
Alaska7133 (11-05-2019)
post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-04-2019, 06:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: East of the Mississippi
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Thanks: 448
Thanked 1,382 Times in 539 Posts
Dave,
Great, thought provoking questions!

SRW,
Good answers!

My best dog never learned to peek around for direction, so I'd just give a Hollywood-cast and fix his position when I finally saw him. And, of course, when I gave a Hollywood-cast, he'd turn the wrong way 90% of the time (largely due his having momentum in the wrong direction, so he'd just continue going in that direction if he didn't see my cast).
My second best dog learned to peek around obstacles when she reached 6 or 7 years old. I could almost hear her say, "You are the worst handler in the world, didn't you see that hay bale!" She wasn't particularly forgiving.

FTGoldens
FTGoldens is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to FTGoldens For This Useful Post:
Alaska7133 (11-05-2019), gdgli (11-05-2019)
post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-04-2019, 10:53 PM
the party's crashing us
 
K9-Design's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Gatorcountry
Posts: 4,172
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Thanks: 1,151
Thanked 4,307 Times in 2,035 Posts
I finally started pressing the button with the come in whistle when my obstinate dog took to magically sitting precisely behind a hay bale or tree on a regular basis. It absolutely 100% was deliberate. Button pressing solved it.

--Anney
"Fisher" CH Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UDT VER RAE MH WCX CCA VCX OS DDHF, Can. CD WC
"Slater" HRCH Morninglo Wing-T Your Bird Can Sing UD MH NA WCX CCA VCX, Can. CD WC
"Bally" BISS GCH Can. CH Richwood Wing-T Workin' Like A Dog CD MH WCX** DDHF, Can. WCI
"Brix"
BISS GCH Can. CH Malagold Wing-T We Can Work It Out JH WC, Can. WC
K9-Design is online now  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to K9-Design For This Useful Post:
Alaska7133 (11-05-2019), gdgli (11-05-2019)
post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-05-2019, 12:35 PM
SRW
Member
 
SRW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Thanks: 6
Thanked 48 Times in 16 Posts
Getting out of your sight does seem to be a trait pups are born with.

Objects, cover lines and terrain changes pull dogs of line. As a young dog runs past a patch of cover. a round bale, a mound etc. he will tend to fade toward it. The dog probably thinks he is going straight, it's just one of the many factors a dog has to learn to overcome. In training the handler needs to recognize and anticipate why and when the dog is going of line and stop and cast at the appropriate times on both marks and blinds. Remember, minimal or no pressure, young dogs make mistakes. Your dog starts to fade of line running past cover, a mistake. Stop him quickly, bring him back to the point he went off line, stop again and cast. Keep it positive, no collar pressure, he made a mistake but then did several things right. Repeat the same concept on different marks and blinds. With repetition the dog will learn to fight the factors and stay on line.
Recognize when the dog is making an effort to hold a hillside or fight the wind and other factors, that is far more important than a perfect line.

With a young dog on blinds, don't be to worried about precise casts. It is more important that the cast is taken with enthusiasm. As long as he takes a nice line somewhat close to the cast you give let him go a ways before stopping and recasting, he needs to know he is a great dog doing great things. Constantly stopping a dog quickly will break his confidence and make him tentative about casting. Blinds and handling have to be fun, nothing worse than a dog that runs blinds tail down, fearing correction. You are on the right path when the dog perks up and gets exited with a "dead bird" Q.
Getting back to "peaking". The collar tone button is a good way to teach "Find me" on blinds. Keeping it fun will make your dog want to find you, excess pressure will make him try to hide.
SRW is online now  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SRW For This Useful Post:
Alaska7133 (11-05-2019), myluckypenny (11-06-2019)
post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-05-2019, 01:44 PM
Senior Member

 
Alaska7133's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,439
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 185 Post(s)
Thanks: 2,297
Thanked 4,465 Times in 2,360 Posts
Hi Dave! Great questions! It was great seeing you in August at the spaniel hunt tests, I hope you enjoyed our tests. Delta Junction is a beautiful place in August.
Sometimes down the shore blinds where the reeds are thick and the dogs can't see me. If I have no idea where they are, which is frustrating, all I can think to do is give them a verbal "back". Then I hope they pop up in view again. I have faked it more than once. Heck one test I even pretended to see Riot for several backs until I finally saw him again. He didn't overrun the blind, so we did it and passed the test. But darn it can be scary. Riot doesn't need eye contact, so I worry about him more. Lucy will peek because she's more into eye contact. I guess it's up to the dog.


~ Stacey with Lucy and Riot, missing Hunter, Reilly, Tiger and Pennie
Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RA JH SHU WC "Lucy"
Thistle Rock Kicking Up a Fuss CD RA WCX ** "Riot"
Alaska7133 is offline  
post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-06-2019, 05:48 AM
aka Shelby
 
MillionsofPeaches's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,547
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Thanks: 1,739
Thanked 2,025 Times in 992 Posts
I get frustrated at the rules sometimes when it comes to "peeking" on blinds. So I watched a handler (very lets use the word, famous) get dropped on a blind because on a dike she blew the whistle and the dog slid down the other side due to the momentum he had. He climbed back up the dike on the other side just enough to pop his head up and wait for her cast. To me this shows signs of every trait you'd want in a dog. Intelligence, biddability, ect. The blind was super good too. But the judges said the dog coming back in even a few feet showed no progresses to the blind. I think this is BS. I've heard a bunch of folks discuss this topic. Some judges feel that this is in fact the correct way to judge others say no way would I drop a dog that came in a few steps to help his handler out and be ready to work with the handler on the blind.

What do you all think?

MillionsofPeaches is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to MillionsofPeaches For This Useful Post:
Alaska7133 (11-06-2019)
post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-06-2019, 10:22 AM
SRW
Member
 
SRW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Thanks: 6
Thanked 48 Times in 16 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsofPeaches View Post
I get frustrated at the rules sometimes when it comes to "peeking" on blinds. So I watched a handler (very lets use the word, famous) get dropped on a blind because on a dike she blew the whistle and the dog slid down the other side due to the momentum he had. He climbed back up the dike on the other side just enough to pop his head up and wait for her cast. To me this shows signs of every trait you'd want in a dog. Intelligence, biddability, ect. The blind was super good too. But the judges said the dog coming back in even a few feet showed no progresses to the blind. I think this is BS. I've heard a bunch of folks discuss this topic. Some judges feel that this is in fact the correct way to judge others say no way would I drop a dog that came in a few steps to help his handler out and be ready to work with the handler on the blind.

What do you all think?
If this was an AKC trial you saw some lousy judging. A dog that runs hard on blinds is showing style, courage and enthusiasm. A dog that comes back a few yards to find handler after a whistle shows experience and intelligence. Penalizing a dog like that rewards slow, piggish, over-pressured dogs that have no style .



Something to keep in mind when handling on long blinds and when there is a lot of cover. Your dog has no idea if you can see him or not. In training, and especially at a trial, give a cast even though you can't see your dog. You may be surprised how often your dog has found you even though you can't see him.
SRW is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to SRW For This Useful Post:
Alaska7133 (11-06-2019)
post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-06-2019, 10:26 AM
Super Moderator

 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New York
Posts: 3,500
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 225 Post(s)
Thanks: 14,250
Thanked 4,414 Times in 2,068 Posts
MoP


Those judges need to be "re-trained" IMO. Sounds like stupid judging to me.
gdgli is offline  
post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-06-2019, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Ester, AK
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska7133 View Post
Hi Dave! Great questions! It was great seeing you in August at the spaniel hunt tests, I hope you enjoyed our tests. Delta Junction is a beautiful place in August.
Sometimes down the shore blinds where the reeds are thick and the dogs can't see me. If I have no idea where they are, which is frustrating, all I can think to do is give them a verbal "back". Then I hope they pop up in view again. I have faked it more than once. Heck one test I even pretended to see Riot for several backs until I finally saw him again. He didn't overrun the blind, so we did it and passed the test. But darn it can be scary. Riot doesn't need eye contact, so I worry about him more. Lucy will peek because she's more into eye contact. I guess it's up to the dog.
Hi Stacy,

Some Alaska dogs:
If you ever get a chance to watch Cindy Little with Bounce,
they usually do an excellent job of long treading in neutral on water blinds.

And Harold Strahle and Preacher are amazing with Preacher "peeking" on land blinds.
I think Preacher was winning all age field trials before 3 years old.

I am a big fan of prolonged treading water on each whistle stop in water.
With my pups I teach this even before swimby...I throw out 2 bumpers,
release the pup, let him swim halfway to a bumper, whistle stop,
then I yell "Good!" the instant pup turns and we have eye contact.
I then cast to the alternative bumper for success.
I do this 2 or 3 times each day, gradually increasing the duration of eye contact
before casting to an alternative bumper.
I like this because it focuses on prolonged treading water plus
the concept of after each whistle stop, eye contact and change directions.

If you watch Mike Lardy's Swimby in his Total Retriever Training DVD,
he also marks the water stop with "GOOD!" the instant pup stops,
turns, and makes eye contact.

We are lucky in Fairbanks that there are many locations where you can run
casting drills on land, then warm running water, then warm swimming water as the summer
progresses and the Tanana River water rises with hotter weather.
DaveVerbyla is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to DaveVerbyla For This Useful Post:
Alaska7133 (11-06-2019)
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome