Quick rule check. Are you familiar with the rules?
1. You are not allowed to use a choke chain collar under any circumstances.
2. In Master, the dog must complete a clean triple, no handles.
3. The handler is permitted to line the dog to the gun stations upon arriving to the line.
4. Under what circumstances is the handler permitted to wear white (white camo)?
5. Birds must be hung on a bird dryer behind the judges.
1. Only junior gets to use a collar, and it has to be a flat buckle collar.
2. Senior is a double, not a triple. You can handle, so it doesn’t have to be clean.
3. No lining the dog to any gunner station. Unlike field trials, where you can line the dog to each gunner station.
4. Dark or customary hunting attire, I’m not sure how white camo would work into that scenario?
5. I don’t remember anything about hanging birds from a dryer.
I’m apprenticing judging senior this summer and judging one senior test this summer. I’ve judged a lot of junior tests. It will be nice to judge something different.
#4 is kind of obscure for most people so I'll start with that one.
White or white cammo is permissible when the hunting scenario is a Snow Goose Hunt. You would also likely see a field full of white decoys as well. This differs from a Field Trial as everyone is wearing white not just the handler and gunners. If you aren't entering a test occurring through the center of the country, you probably won't ever see this scenario.
#4 is kind of obscure for most people so I'll start with that one.
White or white cammo is permissible when the hunting scenario is a Snow Goose Hunt. You would also likely see a field full of white decoys as well. This differs from a Field Trial as everyone is wearing white not just the handler and gunners. If you aren't entering a test occurring through the center of the country, you probably won't ever see this scenario.
"5. Birds must be hung on a bird dryer behind the judges."
You can learn a lot by reading the rule book. Thought you might find this interesting. What happens at your hunt tests? Under GUIDELINES PART IV, Section 9:
9. Be sure that birds are not left lying around the line. Marshals should keep them out of sight in bags or other containers.
False. You can use a choke chain in Senior or Master, and in the holding blind(s) at Junior. You cannot bring a dog to the line in Junior on a choke chain.
2. In Master, the dog must complete a clean triple, no handles.
1. You are not allowed to use a choke chain collar under any circumstances.
I was walking Buffy through the holding blinds on a choke chain. A handler looks at me and says that is not allowed. I said it sure is but she chose to debate this with me. I get to the last holding blind, remove it before stepping out of the blind, run the dog. I then ask the judge is this allowed. Answer is "Oh no, you do that at the Master National and you get thrown out." Admittedly I do not know what the rules are at the Master National but I wasn't at the Master National. I got angry, went home and e mailed Jerry Mann, got his reply, printed it out and now keep a copy of it in my car. Since that time I have heard several judges and marshals say the same thing---not allowed. Don't want to judge bash but I think something as basic as this should not be in question, we do go to similar judges' seminars by the same people.
2. In Master, the dog must complete a clean triple, no handles.
This might be what the judges want to see but it seems to me that it is not required. The triple gets judged, you don't like it, score it as you see it. But the real point is just because something is becoming fashionable (clean triple) it doesn't mean it is in the rules. Seems to me stuff like this tends to be regional.
This is one of my pet peeves. I do think an MH dog should be able to run a triple but if this is the judging criteria then they need to give the dog a clean triple to run. I ran a test where the first series was a double with a diversion, dog ran it very clean. Second series triple all comes out of the same holding blind, nailed two marks had one quick whistle on the third bird and ran a phenomenal water blind. Third series, once again everything out of the same holding blind, same scenario. Dog overran third mark, it was pouring rain, high winds so in order to get the bird, stopped dog and one quick handle. Judge says no worries you are fine. Second judge zeroes the dog.
Judges need to give the dogs a clean triple to run if they are going to use that criteria. This also brings up the question of what is a zero on a mark. The dog marks the area of the fall and either doesn't come up with the bird or the owner gives a quick handle vs, the dog that has no clue where the bird is. Sometimes both are scored the same. I plan to go to my clubs judging seminar this summer to ask about some of these issues.
What should one do if their dog is locked onto the short flyer station but the first bird out is a very long middle bird (and maybe against a dark background making the bird difficult to see if not paying attention)?
4. Under what circumstances is the handler permitted to wear white (white camo)?
I am always learning. I had this discussion with someone who told me that there is a handler who always shows up with snow camo. I couldn't imagine somebody doing this. This person told me that he is waiting to judge this person. Of course it is appropriate in a snow goose rig but not every set up. Well, again, I had never thought about this, but glad we talked about it.
5. Birds must be hung on a bird dryer behind the judges.
The rule that addresses this surprised me. You know what happens at hunt tests, bird dryer/hanger is placed where convenient. (One judge placed it purposely to be a distraction.) But this raises the question, how should the birds be stored?
From the rule book, Guidelines, Part IV, Section 9:
9. Be sure that birds are not left lying around the line. Marshals should keep them out of sight in bags or other containers.
It does amaze me how many people sign up to judge and not only are they not familiar with the rules, but they can't even get the SPIRIT of the rules correct.
The only one I didn't know the specific verbiage on was about the bird hanger/container, which makes sense. I've seen junior judges put the bird hanger next to the dog to "prevent cheating." First off, using tactics like placing woodpiles or other cover immediately down the shore in Junior water to "discourage cheating" gets you two things...a dog who cheats on the way back can't figure out their way around it, or a dog tries so hard to cheat they run the wrong way around the obstacle and get REALLY lost. No dog was ever discouraged from cheating by a well placed branch. IT'S JUST STUPID. To use a BIRD HANGER for that purpose is even MORE STUPID.
It's unbelievable how much mental energy is wasted on freakin CHOKE CHAINS in hunt test discussions. Why AKC cares if a Junior dog wears a choke chain I will never know. In every other venue, dogs in the most basic classes can wear choke chains. It's a very simple rule with a very simple concept and every hunt test the Junior judges have to spend ten minutes going over the rule and half the time they get it WRONG!
It does amaze me how many people sign up to judge and not only are they not familiar with the rules, but they can't even get the SPIRIT of the rules correct.
The only one I didn't know the specific verbiage on was about the bird hanger/container, which makes sense. I've seen junior judges put the bird hanger next to the dog to "prevent cheating." First off, using tactics like placing woodpiles or other cover immediately down the shore in Junior water to "discourage cheating" gets you two things...a dog who cheats on the way back can't figure out their way around it, or a dog tries so hard to cheat they run the wrong way around the obstacle and get REALLY lost. No dog was ever discouraged from cheating by a well placed branch. IT'S JUST STUPID. To use a BIRD HANGER for that purpose is even MORE STUPID.
It's unbelievable how much mental energy is wasted on freakin CHOKE CHAINS in hunt test discussions. Why AKC cares if a Junior dog wears a choke chain I will never know. In every other venue, dogs in the most basic classes can wear choke chains. It's a very simple rule with a very simple concept and every hunt test the Junior judges have to spend ten minutes going over the rule and half the time they get it WRONG!
Anney, you really got the essence of why I started this thread. Now of course I am capable of making mistakes but not knowing the rules is not one of them. You should only know who these judges are. Actually it is quite disconcerting. I do hope you keep reading this thread, I have a little more to say.
"In every other venue, dogs in the most basic classes can wear choke chains. It's a very simple rule with a very simple concept and every hunt test the Junior judges have to spend ten minutes going over the rule and half the time they get it WRONG!"
The dog has just done nice work, the handler gets the bird, leans in, says "Good dog" and pats the dog. The judge shouts out "You can't touch the dog!"
I believe in Senior & Master you can touch the dog once you have been released by the judges from further judging...as in, once you are allowed to put the leash on, you can touch the dog. Junior you can touch the dog once you take the bird.
Interestingly enough this came up in our last hunt test seminar, just as I described it. It was brought up by Jerry Mann's replacement, Greg Lister, who presented the seminar. He said there is no rule that says that you cannot pat your dog and say good boy. He then said, actually quoted the rule below:
Chapter 4 Section 11
Section 11. In Senior and Master Hunting Tests, a handler shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady, or verbally restrain a dog on line, except in extraordinary circumstances, from the time the first bird is being thrown until the dog’s number is called. Violation of any of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to justify a grade of “0” in Trainability.
The rule states "...shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady...". So, there is the rule that addresses touching. I cannot find another rule addressing touching. I must admit to feeling uneasy about informing a judge about this. You see, this exact same thing happened to me, exactly the same thing. And this is another good example of a judge's feeling on the issue becoming a "rule".
The judge said this to me, I assumed it was a rule and didn't question it. And then when I heard this at the seminar I couldn't believe it. This made me aware that this kind of thing just might be more common than I thought. I call this type of rule "Makey Uppy".
Choke chains and slip leads are fine, up to and inside the last holding blind. When the dog exits the holding blind it must be naked. There is an exception for Junior dogs in which a flat buckle collar is allowed.
The idea here is training aids are not allowed while the dog is being tested. ANY kind of collar that constricts is considered a training aid and is therefore prohibited while the dog is under judgement. So, chain collars and slip leads are not allowed while the dog is under judgement.
Contrary to popular belief, there is no such rule and never has been. There is NO requirement that a dog complete a "Clean" triple in Master or double in Senior for that matter, although it can get pretty tough to score enough points in marking to pass without it.
Much of the confusion arises when a judge doesn't really understand how to properly score marking in multiple bird setups. (This sometimes applies to handlers as well.) Handling on a mark is not the same thing as running a blind. So even if the dog had to be handled on the mark it still might get some credit for marking on that particular bird. It isn't automatically a "no credit " for marking simply because the handler blew the whistle. The question of "Did the dog indicate a mark?" for that bird is important and has to be answered.
This is a topic that has raised some serious heated debates at the advanced judging seminars. The rules however are what they are, there is no requirement for a Clean Triple in Master.
Thanks for your input. It does get frustrating. At one hunt test I asked the judge to clarify a rule on choke collars, he didn't get it right. Neither did my co judge at another hunt test.
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