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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
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My thought is that maybe Moe got hurt doing the training, so he's associating the pain and injury to the training methods. This is why once you bare down on the seriousness he comes down a notch.
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This is sort of our thought. He is excited to see the bumpers come out, and he loves to retrieve them. It is more when we are asking for higher level work. It's when we are trying to do specific drills, or using hand signals. It's sort of like as soon as it leaves the basics he gets worried, or loses the ambition.

We've been doing two or three commanded exercises and then throwing in a few just for fun retrieves. Even doing that you can see a definite change in the energy level between commanded and fun. He will do all of them, but I want to get that excitement back.

It's not fun to train a dog that isn't having fun doing it. For us it's not about perfection, but he had so much promise it feels like we are doing him a disservice to not figure this out.
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 01:28 PM
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This is sort of our thought. He is excited to see the bumpers come out, and he loves to retrieve them. It is more when we are asking for higher level work. It's when we are trying to do specific drills, or using hand signals. It's sort of like as soon as it leaves the basics he gets worried, or loses the ambition.

We've been doing two or three commanded exercises and then throwing in a few just for fun retrieves. Even doing that you can see a definite change in the energy level between commanded and fun. He will do all of them, but I want to get that excitement back.

It's not fun to train a dog that isn't having fun doing it. For us it's not about perfection, but he had so much promise it feels like we are doing him a disservice to not figure this out.
I hear you. Definitely want the dog to enjoy training and especially this type of training. This is interactive training that is supposed to be want he wants to do instinctually.

The other thought I had was maybe he's still feeling the injury when he's really pushing it. Not affecting him but like some steps he feels a twinge that reminds him of what happened.

I personally would just let him work up to it. Just do all the fun stuff, change the venue, change the object. If he's showing you he's happy playing and going his speed I would do that for a bit. It's also possible that with the issue he has that going that hard, maybe he feels that's something isn't right and he wants to turn it down a bit. But the fact he turn it in and off with the level of train makes me think it's mental for him. Like an athlete coming back from an ACL surgery. It takes them a while to feel right and trust it again.

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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 02:03 PM Thread Starter
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poor Moe- poor you. I know how high those dreams were for him...

Maybe it is just a function of his break from work. I dk- start him on his pilework in the yard w some play between?
Anney would be the one here to ask.. k9design.
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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 02:07 PM
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I want to thank you for bringing up this issue. Yesterday while training I examined my own cues and have found instances where I have poisoned a cue. Working on it now.

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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 04:22 PM
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DblTrbl



I want to thank you for bringing up this issue. Yesterday while training I examined my own cues and have found instances where I have poisoned a cue. Working on it now.

It's always somewhat heartening to hear others facing similar challenges. I made a big mistake with Shala about 18 months ago (pressure at an inappropriate time) and it shattered her confidence on blinds (she would no longer go). I have been working on rebuilding that confidence ever since (we train mostly very part-time, just once a week or so, except in summer months, so it's been slow).



DblTrblGolden2 - I agree it's either related to the pain, or it might be a confidence issue, too. Shala is exactly the same - super enthusiastic, loves bumpers, loves ducks, and is great at basic stuff. When it starts getting more difficult and I am asking more of her, she also, as you put it, "gets worried" - which I describe as loses confidence. It's funny - once she GOES on a blind, she whistle sits perfectly and takes casts quite well. I just need to get her confidently going again 100% of the time (we're at about 75% on land, and hoping it carries to water when it gets warm enough to be back in). Hope you're able to figure it out.

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post #16 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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We worked on things several times this past weekend and he did better. We are going to keep trying to make some changes and see how it goes.

Thank you everyone for the help!
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post #17 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 01:14 PM
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Good news!

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post #18 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 11:55 AM Thread Starter
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Yesterday we had a unique opportunity so we took advantage of it. There were a couple of people traveling through our area to get to an upcoming field trial. They kept their dogs overnight at our trainers house. We took Moe out for a few of them to watch. My trainer ran Moe through a couple of drills and at first things went well. He then saw exactly what we've been running into at home, Moe just sort of loses interest. Moe definitely knows exactly what he is suppose to do. He did it perfectly twice. On the third send he completely refused for the trainer. He went out and then laid down next to the retrieve. This was with no pressure.

He completely refused anything that a trainer that has never worked with him asked of him.

They then had us run him. He again did things for two to three tries. On the next run he ran out to the retrieve he should have made and then zoomed by everyone, making a wide circle through the field, and laid by our truck, never bringing the retrieve back.

We tried several different things. We looked at some video of him working before the injury, and we all came to the same conclusion, Moe associates getting hurt with working. He could also be being manipulative, but it's still for a reason. He doesn't want to do it.

We are going to continue to "play" with him and see if we can get his courage back up, but we aren't going to force it. Our trainer doesn't want to force it, and he's successfully trained every dog we've ever taken to him. He said he's never had a dog get hurt, or suffer such a medical problem, during training and he just thinks it's to much. I'm reluctant to say Moe got hurt because we have 4 different ortho specialists that all agree his issue is congenital, but it surfaced while he was training. I think if he wasn't being trained we may not have found it so soon, but eventually we would have.

Although there is truly disappointment, we are all just happy Moe can run and be a very normal pet. There was a point that we were questioning quality of life for him. We have always bought our Golden's hoping to field train them, but knowing they may just be a pet. Moe will be a very happy and loved pet.

I'm trying to think if there is anything else we could do. One of the trainers there yesterday said he thinks agility is also to much pressure. He thinks we would get the same reaction. I also worry it may be to much on Moe physically. We still aren't sure about his elbows. One of the trainers recommended service work, but he's really high strung. I'm wondering about obedience, but some of what we teach is different then the classes I've looked into. He also is already trained....

Just wanted to update.
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post #19 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DblTrblGolden2 View Post
Yesterday we had a unique opportunity so we took advantage of it. There were a couple of people traveling through our area to get to an upcoming field trial. They kept their dogs overnight at our trainers house. We took Moe out for a few of them to watch. My trainer ran Moe through a couple of drills and at first things went well. He then saw exactly what we've been running into at home, Moe just sort of loses interest. Moe definitely knows exactly what he is suppose to do. He did it perfectly twice. On the third send he completely refused for the trainer. He went out and then laid down next to the retrieve. This was with no pressure.

He completely refused anything that a trainer that has never worked with him asked of him.

They then had us run him. He again did things for two to three tries. On the next run he ran out to the retrieve he should have made and then zoomed by everyone, making a wide circle through the field, and laid by our truck, never bringing the retrieve back.

We tried several different things. We looked at some video of him working before the injury, and we all came to the same conclusion, Moe associates getting hurt with working. He could also be being manipulative, but it's still for a reason. He doesn't want to do it.

We are going to continue to "play" with him and see if we can get his courage back up, but we aren't going to force it. Our trainer doesn't want to force it, and he's successfully trained every dog we've ever taken to him. He said he's never had a dog get hurt, or suffer such a medical problem, during training and he just thinks it's to much. I'm reluctant to say Moe got hurt because we have 4 different ortho specialists that all agree his issue is congenital, but it surfaced while he was training. I think if he wasn't being trained we may not have found it so soon, but eventually we would have.

Although there is truly disappointment, we are all just happy Moe can run and be a very normal pet. There was a point that we were questioning quality of life for him. We have always bought our Golden's hoping to field train them, but knowing they may just be a pet. Moe will be a very happy and loved pet.

I'm trying to think if there is anything else we could do. One of the trainers there yesterday said he thinks agility is also to much pressure. He thinks we would get the same reaction. I also worry it may be to much on Moe physically. We still aren't sure about his elbows. One of the trainers recommended service work, but he's really high strung. I'm wondering about obedience, but some of what we teach is different then the classes I've looked into. He also is already trained....

Just wanted to update.
Thanks for the update. That was what I felt was the underlying issue. A mental block about getting hurry again for the same activity. He'll probably get over it with time and just doing it over and over again, but will take some time.

Good luck and hope he gets that drive back. Moe needs his mojo back!

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post #20 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 08:52 AM Thread Starter
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Just wanted to give an update. After putting our heads together we are going to back up a bit in training and try to go forward using a different approach. We are going back to some of the basic obedience and teaching it over again using some different cues. We are also consulting with a different trainer. She thinks we can do this on our own, but is willing to help out if we get stuck. I think we have a very smart, but head strong 1 year old on our hands. The good news is he wants to please and picks things up really quickly. I also don't think extra obedience training can ever hurt.

I also went to a dock diving competition over the weekend. It looks like a fun time. We didn't take our dogs but they allowed people to try it out and I'm pretty sure both our guys would love it.
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