Running blinds: Scalloping versus Cast Refusals - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #1 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2018, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Running blinds: Scalloping versus Cast Refusals

MOP and I were texting this morning regarding scalloping and cast refusals. It was a great discussion and I thought it might be good for this forum. Anyone want to talk about the difference between the 2 and how to correct for either or both?



MOP, care to chime in on what your thoughts are regarding scalloping and cast refusals?



And yes I have problems with cast refusals, oh and last weekend, we can add whistle refusals (too many I lost count).


~ Stacey with Lucy and Riot, missing Hunter, Reilly, Tiger and Pennie
Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RA JH SHU WC "Lucy"
Thistle Rock Kicking Up a Fuss CD RA WCX ** "Riot"
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post #2 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2018, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Alaska7133 View Post
MOP and I were texting this morning regarding scalloping and cast refusals. It was a great discussion and I thought it might be good for this forum. Anyone want to talk about the difference between the 2 and how to correct for either or both?

MOP, care to chime in on what your thoughts are regarding scalloping and cast refusals?
I look forward to this discussion!
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post #3 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2018, 06:37 PM
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FT I think you know way more than I. You can start

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post #4 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-09-2018, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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MOP HaHa! Not all of us have a great dog like you do.


Here's my descriptions, I don't know if they are close, but here goes.
Cast refusal: Dog is running a blind. Dog sits on whistle. You need the dog to do a left angle back. Dog goes right angle back or right over. Meaning the dog from the beginning of that cast, doesn't attempt to go in the direction of the cast. Basically flips you the paw. Sometimes cast refusal will be combined with a crooked sit, where the dog isn't facing you when you whistle sit them. And sometimes can be combined with a dog that won't look at you when they whistle sit, instead looks in the direction they are going to run once you send them. And often is combined with a handler that doesn't wait for the dog to even come to a complete stop and sit, before the handler throws and arm into a cast direction without waiting at all.



Scallop: I thought dogs scalloped because of wind pushing them, or terrain changes. Strong winds that move a dog, especially on water. Or a steep side hill that makes a dog drop down a hillside or move up. But sometimes they scallop because they are really going to go in the direction they wanted to go in the beginning. But they initially took your cast and went in that direction, then slowly faded into the direction the dog wanted to go. So you whistle sit the dog, and you realize the line they've run in hasn't changed at all, they are still running on the same line. So I guess I put scalloping into 2 different categories, one that is terrain/weather driven and one that is driven by a dog that wants to go in another direction than the handler wants them to go.


So how to fix all that is the question.....


~ Stacey with Lucy and Riot, missing Hunter, Reilly, Tiger and Pennie
Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RA JH SHU WC "Lucy"
Thistle Rock Kicking Up a Fuss CD RA WCX ** "Riot"
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post #5 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-10-2018, 06:06 AM
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a great dog like I do.....ha ha ha.....you know Proof is the devil incarnate on blinds...

The way I finally fixed it and MAINTAIN it is I don't give proof any more "chances" except on critical casts that pressure would perhaps be counterproductive.

When he was younger he got a lot more chances and I was just not recognizing scallops as he was making progress to the blind. I just didn't "get it" and it was super frustrating to me. I really couldn't see my blinds objectively because I was so wrapped up in running it. I can still get wrapped up in a very hard meaty blind and forget what proof is doing and focus too much on other things but I am better than I used to. Like I said to you if you are lifting the same arm over and over even if your dog finally makes it to the blind, your dog never took your cast. If I am not recognizing that my trainer will comment, is your right arm tired yet? lol...then I realize I have been casting him right right right. Proof was the master of scallops and my new pup is too, I call her potatoes because how much she loves the scallops. But she is very young so she gets "chances" until she is more solid. Proof is much older and he knows better.

Now, he takes a scallop or a cast refusal and he gets a correction. It has helped tremendously. Honestly, it is if Proof never understood it as a team sport before and now he is aware he has to work with me...He took advantage of those chances and when I stopped giving them he realized he has to just do it when I say do it, rather than after the third or fourth time I asked....

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post #6 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-10-2018, 08:51 AM
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Is your dog confused? He took a cast, changed his direction, but not the way you wanted. Okay then what did you do? When I think there is confusion I go back to basics. May not be the best way but I will tell you the dog takes the correct cast after that. Basics being a review with casting drills.
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post #7 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-10-2018, 10:16 AM
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What MOP said!
We are on the zero tolerance for nonsense protocol here. I know that Flyer knows he is to stop on a whistle, take the direction of my cast AND carry it. So correction comes into to play fast and this is not mamby pamby correction. He is still learning to fight suction/factors so it doesnít have to be the perfect cast, he can overcast but he has to take my cast. As we are working through this our lines are getting better and there is less and less choppy blinds.
Flyerís marking did suffer for awhile after I finally went to zero tolerance.
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post #8 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-10-2018, 05:10 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gdgli View Post
Alaska

Is your dog confused? He took a cast, changed his direction, but not the way you wanted. Okay then what did you do? When I think there is confusion I go back to basics. May not be the best way but I will tell you the dog takes the correct cast after that. Basics being a review with casting drills.

George,
hard to do a correction at a test. What I should do is stop him before he gets to a place that might be a problem. Then cast him through it. What I did was wait until there was a problem. I should have taken control. But I didn't.


Yes I do need to go back to some drills. I always do wagon wheel and some drills before a test in the morning. Try to make sure we're on the same page. Obviously my morning warm up didn't work.



FTGoldens,
Can you help us?


~ Stacey with Lucy and Riot, missing Hunter, Reilly, Tiger and Pennie
Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RA JH SHU WC "Lucy"
Thistle Rock Kicking Up a Fuss CD RA WCX ** "Riot"
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post #9 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-10-2018, 06:31 PM
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[QUOTE=hollyk;7642478]I know that Flyer knows he is to stop on a whistle, take the direction of my cast AND carry it. /QUOTE]

Exactly....

Stacey you and George can do drills all day long but at some point you have to get off the pot. Like Holly said they know the rules so there is no reason you shouldn't challenge them and put those rules to the test in training. I think a big problem for both of you is you have very high driving dogs but you guys are too soft on them. You both can't bring yourself to really correct them. And that is okay, its what you are comfortable with but you can't expect these highly intelligent master manipulating high rolling dogs to do what you want them to with very weak consequences.

Drills for Proof is fun time. He is perfect on drills. He LOVES to do drills with me and prances along perfectly for everything. Put him out in a big open field where he is free he is a different dog. He LOVES blinds but he loves to run any way. Point is I'm simply not able to get the same corrections on him that I am on a long cold blind especially with lots of terrain changes where it is impossible for him to line it. I personally like drills for things that don't need any corrections. Like doing blinds around gunners or going over logs and stuff. I like to go back to my pattern blinds to work on casting. He knows where the blinds are and I can stop him and switch things up. Plus my pattern blinds involve keyholes and roads and so forth so I can keep it in his head.

Your problem with your dog is disobedience and your inability to recognize what you are doing wrong and then fixing it. This was my problem and something I still need to get better at. But it finally clicked (thank God my trainer didn't get sick of me) for the most part so I know how to recognize what I did wrong and correct it next time. Before I didn't know what I was doing wrong at all and often times would think the blind was good and my trainer would draw it out on paper and it was a completely different blind than I thought I ran! Perhaps this could help you too? have someone draw every thing you do and the line on paper. Videoing on my didn't work cause I still wasn't recognizing what was wrong. the line on paper blew my mind.

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post #10 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-10-2018, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
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MOP,
Drills are something Riot is also good at. Heís close to me in a drill and knows all about how to be a good dog when Iím right there. Thatís why heís such a good obedience trial dog. That High in Trial shows it.

What I was thinking about for a drill was a little different. I was thinking of using some big open mowed fields with no features in the area. Set out a pile 300-400 yards away that Riot doesnít know where it is. Then running a blind with him. Remove all the factors except him and I. And just say here we go, weíll drill through this. Then Iíd like to gradually increase distractions and terrain features as we get better over time.

I donít think returning to double T will make a difference. I donít think swim by will make a difference. He knows those drills. There will be no surprises. Heís a good drill dog. I know I need to be a lot harder on him.

The one thing Iím not totally sure about is getting better on water blinds.


~ Stacey with Lucy and Riot, missing Hunter, Reilly, Tiger and Pennie
Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RA JH SHU WC "Lucy"
Thistle Rock Kicking Up a Fuss CD RA WCX ** "Riot"
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