Champion title discussion - Page 6 - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums
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post #51 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MillionsofPeaches View Post
A couple judges choose overly heavy coats and then breeders start breeding for more coat. Well this truly is detrimental to the dog as an outdoor athletic lifestyle hunting.
Are you sure thatís how that happened?

I have heard a different story driven more by a breeder or breeders determined to remake the breed.

I have no idea which is true. Unless there is evidence, I donít know that we can say either way.


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post #52 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 09:45 PM
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Megora
Your post said if I want extremely athletic and extremely high drive why not get another breed. Implication is that this is not in our breed.
If you want me to put italics in to emphasize the words you used, I can do that.

I saw the emphasis on "extremely", vs emphasis on having a naturally athletic and high drive dog.


Last edited by Megora; 01-16-2018 at 11:08 PM.
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post #53 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 10:27 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LJack View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillionsofPeaches View Post
A couple judges choose overly heavy coats and then breeders start breeding for more coat. Well this truly is detrimental to the dog as an outdoor athletic lifestyle hunting.
Are you sure thatís how that happened?

I have heard a different story driven more by a breeder or breeders determined to remake the breed.

I have no idea which is true. Unless there is evidence, I donít know that we can say either way.
From my reading the coat separation happened around 1910s. Color is another big change that happen around that time.
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post #54 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 10:46 PM
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Jeeze where have I been all day on this thread?!

Nate - I appreciate your independent thought on this topic.
Look at the pictures of goldens from WAY BEFORE Noramby Campfire, the original Magoffin dogs, they are much more moderate and bigger dogs.
Campfire was only 10 months old in that photo -- a lanky teenager.

Goldens were not recognized by the AKC for another 22 years --- the "separation" started during the late 70s & early 80s
The breed's last Dual Champion was in the early 70s

What drove the separation? Too many breeders focusing on one area of competition and those venues becoming exponentially more competitive. The extremes won. The moderates got left in the dust. Same reason they keep moving back the 3 point line in basketball. Kids get better, the old game isn't a challenge anymore.

I strongly, strongly am against requiring any title to validate another title in another venue. What happens when you "require" a hunting title to validate a breed CH? Well the hunting title requirement gets dumbed down so hard, it's no longer a challenge to pass it. If it's not a challenge, why bother. What is it proving.

Here's the other issue. A piece of paper stating a dog holds "X" title means NOTHING. It means he met the statistical requirements of the title.
A CH certificate doesn't tell you how good of a front the dog has, is he balanced, does he have slipped hocks, is he too long in back, does he track wide. Nope. It tells you he got 15 points and two majors. How did he get 15 points and two majors? Was he shown sparingly to breeder judges by his amateur owner? Did he finish from the puppy classes? Did he finish after his owner dragged him to 300 shows? Did he finish after being on 5 different pro handlers trucks for 4 years?

Same for any performance venue. I know a BIG NAME show Champion golden who took nearly 40 tries to finish his JUNIOR HUNTER.
I know a GRAND CHAMPION show golden who took a staggering FIFTY-SIX TRIES to earn a Master Hunter. It has the same elusive "Dual Dog Hall of Fame" notoriety as my GRAND CHAMPION show golden who took a tidy SIX TRIES to earn his Master Hunter. Same titles. Very different stories.

A dog is measured in the eye of the beholder. Titles tell you nothing. Go see him and judge for yourself. Stay critical.

--Anney
"Fisher" CH Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UDT VER RAE MH WCX CCA VCX OS DDHF, Can. CD WC
"Slater" HRCH Morninglo Wing-T Your Bird Can Sing UD MH NA WCX CCA VCX, Can. CD WC
"Bally" BISS GCH Can. CH Richwood Wing-T Workin' Like A Dog CD MH WCX** DDHF, Can. WCI
"Brix"
BISS GCH Can. CH Malagold Wing-T We Can Work It Out JH WC, Can. WC
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post #55 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 11:18 PM
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I have one of both, a small field golden (she's only 47lbs, super petite, and very light on coat) and a show golden with lots of bone and too much hair (as in I will never take him pheasant hunting because the amount of burrs he would attract is frightening to think about). I frequently say that my perfect dog would be a mixture of them both. The conformation and temperament of my show line, the drive, energy, and smarts of my field line, with a coat somewhere in between. But I don't think requiring certain titles to achieve other titles is the answer to that though, its supporting those breeders that do strive for the all-around dog, which is what I will do with my next golden! That and when you get your dog Nate, make an effort to show that your dog can do it all.
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post #56 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 11:26 PM Thread Starter
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I oldest dog I've seen was Nous but he isn't a true golden retriever. Culham is the one that has the best poise to compare with. When you say the 70s you are speaking 1970s correct? AKC took longer then the English kennel to recognize the breed and the article i believe was talking about the coat and color separation within the English kennel. I got your take on it Prisms and a ton others the post would be complete if Marcia Schlehr posted her thoughts. LOL.
Btw k9-design I will be getting a boy golden soon and will be using Fisher as a model, I got my work cut out.
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post #57 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 11:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by myluckypenny View Post
I have one of both, a small field golden (she's only 47lbs, super petite, and very light on coat) and a show golden with lots of bone and too much hair (as in I will never take him pheasant hunting because the amount of burrs he would attract is frightening to think about). I frequently say that my perfect dog would be a mixture of them both. The conformation and temperament of my show line, the drive, energy, and smarts of my field line, with a coat somewhere in between. But I don't think requiring certain titles to achieve other titles is the answer to that though, its supporting those breeders that do strive for the all-around dog, which is what I will do with my next golden! That and when you get your dog Nate, make an effort to show that your dog can do it all.
O I have ever intention to try to dabble in everything, like I told k9 I am using her boy Fisher as a model.
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post #58 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 11:32 PM
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O I have ever intention to try to dabble in everything, like I told k9 I am using her boy Fisher as a model.
Hah, she doesn't know it, but her boy Fisher is my model as well Which is funny, because my boy's name actually is Fisher (named before I knew about him).
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post #59 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 11:33 PM
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Yes 1970s I thought you were implying a split between show and field not English vs. American

Use Bally as a model, he's a better dog...
But I appreciate the sentiment!
OK Fisher was THE BEST

my best advice -- if you want to compete and earn high level titles in multiple venues....choose pedigrees with dogs competing and earning high level titles in multiple venues -- oh! and be a good dog trainer (the hardest part!)

Best of luck!

--Anney
"Fisher" CH Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UDT VER RAE MH WCX CCA VCX OS DDHF, Can. CD WC
"Slater" HRCH Morninglo Wing-T Your Bird Can Sing UD MH NA WCX CCA VCX, Can. CD WC
"Bally" BISS GCH Can. CH Richwood Wing-T Workin' Like A Dog CD MH WCX** DDHF, Can. WCI
"Brix"
BISS GCH Can. CH Malagold Wing-T We Can Work It Out JH WC, Can. WC
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post #60 of 128 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 11:43 PM Thread Starter
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No the article was talking about coat and color separation during the 1910s so I assumed they where talking about the English kennel.
I almost got a bally boy but there was a mix up with the breeder so it didn't happen. The line of the boy im getting looks good.
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